Episode 55: Jessica Stone, Ph.D, RPT-S and Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S website
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S website
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S instagram
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: In past generations who have experienced something, they learned things about life and about safety and about trust and about relationships that then get passed on through the generations and impact all the way down.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome to what your therapist is reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. Today we are discussing Trauma Impacts: Repercussions of Individual and Collective Trauma by Claire Mellenthine, Jessica Stone and Robert Grant. Today, we get to speak with two of the authors, Jessica Stone and Clara Mellenthine. Since we are talking about trauma, I will give a trigger warning.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S, is a licensed psychologist working in a private practice setting. She has been a practitioner, professor, presenter, mentor, and author for more than 30 years. Dr. Stone's interest is in therapeutic digital tools, specifically using virtual reality, tablets, consoles, and AI.
Clair Mellenthine, LCSW, RPT-S is a renowned clinical supervisor, international speaker, and acclaimed play therapist. As the author of best-selling books like Attachment Centered Play Therapy, she brings unparalleled expertise to the field.
And after today's episode, head on over to social media at Therapy Books Podcast and make sure to follow along as we will be celebrating our two-year anniversary, and we'll have lots of giveaways going on. And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome, Jessica and Claire. I am excited to talk about Trauma Impacts, but as our listeners know, I like to start with this question. Can you share a memory of how reading has impacted you? Claire, did you want to start?
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Yeah, I love this question. Um, I grew up, I mean, all of us grew up, I think, in an age where you know, we don't have social media, but I love to escape in books. Um, some of my earliest memories are reading books with my grandma and my, my own mother. Um, and kind of a funny story. My, when I was in fourth grade, we would do fourth grade trips. So, my parents would just take one of us. I'm a family of eight kids. So, it was like our chance to like go see someplace new, be alone, get all that individual attention. And I was so excited to go to New York City. And my mom was like, put your book down. You're missing everything as I am like immersed in like the babysitter, uh, Babysitter Club, right? Babysitter kids. But it was just something that like, I've always just loved. You know, in another girl's trip, just really quickly, we were in Boston and, um, my mom had taken me and all of my sisters. So there's five of us girls and probably needing a little breather from us. I can't imagine why she would need that, but she's like, we're in Boston Commons and she's like, all right, why doesn't everyone go pick out a book and I'll buy it for you. And every single one of us had gone to a different bookstore and all bought the same book of make way, Make Way for Ducklings. Because each of us had such a sweet memory of reading that over and over and over again with our mom. And I just thought that that, like, when you asked me that question, like, that was, like, one of those first memories that popped into my mind of just, all those years later, like, how reading has really been such a cornerstone, um, in my relationships, you know, with my, my family of origin and, and the work that I do, um, but really shaping me and kind of giving me that glimpse of like, there's so much more outside of here than just what's right in front of you. So, I love it. It's fun to watch my own kids find very different levels of reading too.
Jessica Fowler: I love both of those stories, buying the same book and that you couldn't wait to go on this trip. And you were just in the book.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: I was like, put it down. I love that you read, but you're missing your whole trip. Put it down.
Jessica Fowler: You've been waiting years for this trip and you're missing it. I love that. And that's so, it was so cute that, or not cute, I guess isn't the right word, but I love that they did that fourth grade trip with all of you for eight to like make that special time. That's amazing. Yeah.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: They're really pretty awesome people and I'm lucky to have them.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. Well, thanks for sharing that. Jessica, I'm curious about yours. What's a memory of reading that you have that's impacted you?
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Every time I think about the answer to this question, because it's come up before, I feel like I was a strange child. Um, and then hearing Claire's very, um, I don't know, I don't, I don't really like the word normal, but it felt, you know, just your sweet childhood story of, of reading, uh, for me, it was actually, uh, Dibs in Search of Self, which is a very famous, well known, you know, cornerstone book in, in, for therapists, particularly for play, I think play therapists. And, um, I didn't know any of that when I picked it up. I picked it up because, uh, I was an only child and my family. Father was visiting some people, some other adults, and there was all this adult talk happening, and so I was in a room with a bunch of books and had a little freckle faced boy on the front of it, and I thought, oh, I'll read that, and I think I was nine, and so I sat down, and I, we were there all day, and I read the entire thing in one day, and I was fascinated, by the book and by his experiences, by the way that this adult interacted with him and accepted him for who he was, I think it was really not just not just instrumental in the paths that I took after that, because I'm sure there are ties somewhere, but I think it really uh, impacted just my, my way of looking at life and relationships and people's experiences from a very, very young age. And it was really happenstance.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. That had a huge impact probably on. Like, well, I'm assuming who you are today, right, learning all of that at a young age through a book.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Absolutely. Books are really important.
Jessica Fowler: I love asking these questions and hearing these stories, like they're so different and so similar in the same way. I love it. And I love that you found something to do when all the adults were talking. I think we all have those memories, or I do anyway. So, let's talk about your book, Trauma Impacts. And let's, I'm curious. Really kind of what I mean, my question normally is what impact would you like your readers to have after reading this book? And so, if we can kind of talk about that and sort of the title of Trauma Impacts and the Repercussions of individual and Collective Trauma. What is the hope with this book? And what does that mean?
Jessica Stone, Ph.D, RPT-S: I think I'll start that one off. I I, so to back up just, just a moment, is that Claire, Robert and I have co edited, this is our third book. So ,the way that we've managed that with the three of us is that whoever has the idea, uh, and the structure of it is, is kind of the lead on that book. And then we all come together to figure out what the contents will be and who the authors will be. And then we edit it. We have a whole process for how we edit together. So, this is our third. And so basically the, the first one, and I have this order correct, Claire, the first one was Robert's was that Perspectives was first. And then the second one was our groups. Book, and that was Claire's lead and it was my turn. And so I, I was thinking, what, what do I want to, to have my kind of stamp in this, in this trio B and it was somewhere in the midst of all we were going through in COVID. And I just started thinking about so much out there has to do with primary trauma. And. So much out there. That's that's written and available to us. And I started thinking about all the different layers. And if you had a visual for it, there are just so many layers that come out of whatever was the traumatic experience and that I wanted something that was going to speak to that and give voice to the different layers and and Claire and I wrote the introduction together and we talked about this transcending of, of trauma through all kinds of different categories and experiences and cultures and the intersectionality of it and, and at a really human level, what does that mean to us? What do we experience? How does it impact us? And so my hope for people who are reading it, um, or who will pursue finding it will be that they will really walk away with a multidimensional idea of these impacts of trauma and think of it in in somewhat of a 3D way, as opposed to, um, one dimension and one direction of impact.
Jessica Fowler: I can see that. And so this book is set up. I mean, can you maybe explain a little bit about how it is set up?
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: You want me to take that, Claire?
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Yeah.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: So, we have it in three sections. And so, we have impacts of trauma, we have trauma impacts with specific populations, and then we have future implications, um, and, and progressive supports of trauma impacts. So, we tried to start out with the fundamentals, and then a few key, obviously we can't address all of the, different populations in different ways. I'm sure and I want to say, unfortunately, because that means there are just so many different things happening in people's lives and so many directions. So, I'm sure we could do multiple volumes of this and still not touch on. Things that so many people experience, but we tried to, to find some good representations of traumatic experiences that people can have. And then we, we wanted to look into the future for the future implications and different supports and the ways that people can just bringing it down to the basics to, to heal, to begin to heal, to process, to connect all, all those really important components that we work into our mental health treatment.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: And I think alongside that, you know, within each of the chapters and, and different parts of the book, the, the interweave of kind of a systemic focus. So, looking at all the between and within that's happening, not only to the individual, but then that ripple out effect that happens with the family, with the culture, with the school, with the community and looking at all the kind of like the between and within. And sometimes these hidden nuances, um, that happened with trauma, because I think when we have such a singular focus or more individualized focus, the rest of the system gets ignored and healing truly cannot take place. Right. Until a new equilibrium or homeostasis can be provided again within the family, within the couple, within the friendship, within the school. Right. And, and we see this, unfortunately, you know, happen over and over and over again, um, and especially I think how clinicians are trained to think about trauma, it's fixed it, fix the hurt kid, right? However big they may be but fix the hurt kid. And then that's. And, and we really wanted to bring to light how it's never just one person being impacted. And with the negatives that come from that, but also the incredible resiliency that comes from that too because I think as Jess was saying, you know, as we're looking at just such a, the intricate intersectionality of life and relationships and humans. Right. We also know that that's where that healing shift can happen. And, and as people come to a new healing and then integration of like the pre and post trauma self, so is the relationships within that system as well. If we can take an approach of looking at like the full picture instead of just a few pieces we have right in front of us.
Jessica Fowler: Can you share maybe an example of what that would look like or what as therapist or anyone kind of reading this book would get to maybe understand the larger impact that it's not necessarily just the one person who is struggling, that it has a larger impact.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Yeah, so I actually, I have, you know, often when I'm teaching other clinicians about working with trauma and especially kids have experienced trauma, which is part of my, my area of expertise and specialty that I, that I work with is attachment and trauma issues. And so, for the example of, you know, in play therapy, working with really young children, let's say that there has been a child who was sexually abused, but it was a non, you know, not within the family. So, family friend, you know, somebody outside of that core family group and they come to therapy and oftentimes what I found now being in the field for well over two decades in situations like that, it's not uncommon for the parents to be more traumatized than the child, especially when it's been a nonviolent offense. Because for the parents who weren't involved in the perpetration of their child, we have these beautiful, fully functioning, well developed brains, which means their imagination of what was happening to their child, what their child must have felt like, the rumination, the imagination, all of this is happening over and over and over again. And if we're just treating the child victim and not treating the parents, they stay in a traumatized state within the relationship and within the family because the parents didn't have a chance to heal from this, right? And so, so I think that that's been like the shift for me and my work over the years has really been looking at how trauma impacts everybody. Right? And then you add another layer of complexity and say their siblings that, you know, were or were not involved, but there is definitely an impact on them for that little family, right? And so, you can see how these different pathways and trajectories of healing can be established, but when you're, you're kind of silenced and forgotten you feel that too, right? And then that can also have some unfolding work that needs to happen later in life as well. And I think when we can begin to start approaching this from a systemic perspective, it really shifts how we do the work and how we help kids and families heal.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: I had a really profound experience when I was very, very new. I was still in grad school and I was shadowing with a seasoned therapist and we were doing an intake with a mother who was bringing her child in and this situation happened to also be surrounding sexual abuse. And the seasoned clinician all of a sudden said to the mom, so, what happened to you when you were young? And I was flabbergasted. I was like, how did you even think to ask that question? You know, there was nothing. The mom was not talking about herself. How did you ask that question? And we could have all sorts of conversations about this person's approach and whatnot. But the bottom line of what I walked away with was that we also can have an intergenerational, um, impact of these traumas. And it doesn't have to be sexual abuse. It can be all kinds of things that people in our past in in past generations who have experienced something, they learned things about life and about safety and about trust and about relationships that then get passed on through the generations and impact all the way down and having understanding knowledge, healing, all the things about that can help break that cycle and hopefully we can pick out the things that really are important for us to pay attention to and to, and to understand, but, but not to, to keep passing down the, the difficult aspects of the trauma that someone so long ago experienced and then also hopefully keep people in safe environments because our meters get thrown off of evaluating a safety, um, components of safety when that's happened. So that's really is so much, these are examples, but the systemic impact of these traumas and, and again, back to that idea I had earlier of that 3d model, it's, it goes in so many directions and, um, as therapists, I think it's, paramount that we keep that in mind.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of what you're saying is generational trauma. Right? Even if it didn't happen to the generation currently, like, so I talked about this on a different podcast and this idea. So, say like alcoholism, right? So, somebody was raised in an alcoholic home, then they go and have children. There's no alcohol present, but that impacted them. How does that, you know, maybe they have lots of anxiety or people pleasing like all of this can kind of come out in the next generation. And so that's the importance of healing. But I love what you're saying. Just, you know, the whole systemic approach, not even just within your own little nuclear family, but even the community, the systems in place. And so, this book really is, so you said is in three parts, and it's different chapters really kind of written by a variety of authors about different topics. You have a range of topics. I think there is, or I know there is, um. foster and adoptive care. There's play therapy in there. There's refugee population. Talk about video games as a form of therapy. Is there anyone in particular for, um, let's start with you, Claire, that sticks out for you that you could share with the audience?
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Oh, this is a hard one because I'm like, I love this book. Like this is one of I really am so proud of this book and for each of our, our contributing authors, but I think I really, one of my favorite ones. It's hard to have a favorite.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: It's like picking your favorite child. This is an unfair question.
Jessica Fowler: Okay. I'll, I'll rephrase the question. Is there one that sticks out that may your, our listeners may want to know about.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Yes, actually. And I think for a lot of our listeners who are probably within the field of mental health, I would imagine, um, in some capacity or another, but I really actually love Lisa Dion's chapter, um, when the helper is in crisis too, because talking about the complexity of systemic work, we're not exempt from being human. And I think that, you know, it goes so much more than lip service of self-care, right? Like we, we really have to buy what we sell in our field if we want to stay in here and have a healthy longevity to our career and not get jaded and burned out. Um, and I think though, like that's a voice that we actually don't listen to very much is how, what about the helpers who are traumatized or going through the trauma with the community that they're helping, you know, there's another chapter on that of working in disaster zones and some of our dear colleagues, um, who are, you know, from Europe, that's, that's their life's work, like they get dropped in, you know, and they've been there, you know, as crisis is unfolding themselves and how, you know, but thinking about that in terms of what we're going through locally, like, and nationally, like we see this over and over and over, whether it's a natural disaster or a man created disaster or a hurting little boy disaster that just happened this last week, you know, where the destruction and devastation, you know, there's not even words for it. And the people who are helping are impacted too. And so I think that that's something I actually, I really, I love that, that is part of this book because we're not exempt from this, even with our well intentioned, well trained brains and, and love that we have for helping people we need. We need our own safe spaces too.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. I really liked that chapter too. I like anything that brings awareness to our roles, right? Cause you have, it's the, what's going on in my personal life that could be traumatic or my history and the things that are happening that collectively a community could be dealing with. COVID 19 was a great example. We were all, all of a sudden at home trying to work with, you know, maybe our kids around. And so were all of our clients. Like that was really hard to navigate. That's just an example of what that can look like. And so just bringing awareness to all of that. Cause you're right cause we do have to put in this work to not get burnt out, to have therapists who have been a therapist for 20 some years, right? Like we want that to continue. Jessica, is there one that sticks out for you that you want to share?
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: I was, I was really hoping you'd just move on to another question because I really don't want to, I, I love so many of them.
Jessica Fowler: I don't have to ask this question. I can ask a different one.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: No, it's a good question. I just, I just feel like, you know. I know, it's like Claire just said, they're all, they're all our babies.
Jessica Fowler: It gives the listeners a little flavor of like what, this is the book. Think about it like that.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Absolutely. I don't know, and I'm sitting here going, oh, the refugees one. Oh, the adoption. Oh, the BIPOC. Oh, the, so I'm just keep going, I keep going through all of them and how do I pick, um, but I guess I'm landing on trauma informed considerations with neurodivergent children and adolescents. And because to me, there are, well, I mean, we could say this about any of them, so it should go circular here. But to me, wrapping our heads around all of this, whatever all of this even is for somebody, if particularly as a therapist, understanding or doing our best to understand what a person has experienced it and how they have experienced it and how they're looking at it and thinking about it and feeling it and then understanding that this person may not look at things the way similar, I'm not saying that we all look at things the same, but, but if your, your, your brain processes and is wired differently than at least what we have labeled to be a typical response, all of these words are so laden, we could have big conversations about all of them, but just to boil it down, it's, it's another layer to understand what a person who is neurodivergent may have taken away, may have perceived, may have process or not, may have experienced that to understand that and then on top of it, understand all of the other things that went on that were the traumatic experience and the impacts of that and all the ripple effect. It's a, it's a whole additional set of layers on top of an already complex situation. And I think it's important for us to really understand our clients. So that we can look through the lens as best we can that we understand they look through ,so that we can help them as therapists. So, that's the one I'll highlight.
Jessica Fowler: That one stuck out to me too, and I will give you an example. Two of my three children are neurodivergent. They have dyslexia and dysgraphia. And when I think about the whole range of trauma that, you know, I don't, I don't know if they find it traumatic. I have found the diagnosing and going through that process and the response from school to be very traumatic. Um, and then it impacts the whole family. And then I think at a community level, all these kids who are not getting services, who are not being taught to read, and how that impacts the community. Like it just, keeps going and going and going. Um, and that's just one example. I mean, I think reading is really important. Clearly, I obviously care very much about reading, but just that how it just can impact, right? It starts with one thing. It's one child who's dealing with that and how it goes out. But when I read that, like, that's how I identified it for me, right? Not exactly what is being talked about in their chapter, but just that idea that so many other people, one person goes through something we have to look at and understand, especially when you're working with a family, how things impact a family.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Well, and, and, and circling back to your initial question, what you just said and how, how you described that. That chapter impacted you and what resonated for you. That's exactly the hope for the whole book because yes, there's the specific topic that that person is writing about their expertise, their experience and whatnot. But the, the idea that there can be things in there that can speak to people and resonate and help them to broaden their approach and their understanding of these topics. And any other ones that are elicited, that's the point of the book.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Well said. So, who should be picking up your book?
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Oh, everybody. Everybody who's listening to this should pick up our book, my friends. But really, I mean, we really wrote this for the newly beginning social worker, budding social worker to the most seasoned one and everybody in between. I know that there's a couple of different grad schools across the country that are implementing this as one of their required texts, which is so humbling and just beautiful for, for us to have that, you know, to help us be like, here's a, here's a way to start a foundation for your work and understanding this. I mean, that is our hope. Absolutely. You know, and then for those of us have been in the field for so long. You know, I think. There's a lot of things we don't know, we don't know until we find out we don't know them. And, you know, making sure, like one of our, one of our reasons for writing this as an edited book is we wanted to give a lot of voices, a place to have a voice and speak from their experience and their community, their culture, their workplace environment, right? So it's not just like, oh, I don't do play therapy, so I'm not, I don't need this book. But looking at this from a very holistic systemic approach, like every chapter I feel like has something for somebody. My hope is that every chapter has something for somebody in it.
Jessica Fowler: And it's a way to read. I feel like it's something even for me, like to go back to and just pick up if there's a piece of information I want or something I'm working on to go back that you don't necessarily have to sit down and like read it in one sitting.
You can go through and read it for what speaks out to you at that moment of what could be useful too. I think that's good for the listeners to know. It's not like a, I got to read chapter one through chapter 20.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Absolutely. Yeah. You can just pick up as you said to what speaks to you and, and then maybe that will lead to, Oh, You know, that sparked a thought here, I'll read this chapter and, and, and I love what Claire said that we, we wanted it specifically to be an edited book with really carefully curated authors so that, and, and an international, uh, set of authors too, it's not all U.S. based, so, um, so that it could really have an impact.
Jessica Fowler: Well, thank you so much for both of you for coming on today and talking about what is a heavy topic and in such a way that hopefully the listeners get a good idea of what's in this book and can go pick it up and learn a little bit more about the impacts of trauma. Claire, where can our listeners connect with you?
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Um, they can always find me at Clairmellethine.com or my Instagram is usually some Instagram or Facebook is usually a good way to find me, but it's Clairmellenthine Play Therapy. So.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. And for you, Jessica?
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Oh, that's a good question. Uh, my website is my name, jessicastonephd.com. And, um, I have a couple of groups on Facebook and I do have Instagram as well, but I'm not incredibly active on it. Um, LinkedIn, again, my name. So if anyone wants to reach out, I'd be, I'd be happy to have a chat and, um, and hear if you have any questions or want to let us know anything, or if you have ideas for our next book that this trio is going to be putting out, we already have the next one, but they're all, you know, we're, we're each doing them, right? So if one of us does one, we have to finish out the series. So, there'll be more.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: We're stuck together. Robert's been with us forever, whether he likes it or not, you know.
Jessica Fowler: Well, I won't ask about that. So hopefully you'll come back and share about the next one.
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S: Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S: Thank you for having us.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information is Provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the authors:
Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S, is a licensed psychologist working in a private practice setting. She has been a practitioner, professor, presenter, mentor, and author for more than 30 years. Dr. Stone’s interest in therapeutic digital tools, specifically using virtual reality, tablets, and consoles and AI, has culminated in clinical mental health use and research for mental health, medical, and crisis settings. She is the co-creator of the Virtual Sandtray App for iPad (VSA) and the Virtual Sandtray for Virtual Reality (VSA-VR). Dr. Stone is the past Chief Psychology Officer for AscendantVR, is a member of various boards, and serves as an affiliate of the East Carolina University College of Education Neurocognition Science Laboratory.
Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S, is a renowned clinical supervisor, international speaker, and acclaimed play therapist. As the author of best-selling books like "Attachment Centered Play Therapy," she brings unparalleled expertise to the field. With a wealth of experience as a play therapist and professor, Clair has significantly impacted the lives of numerous children and families. Recognized for her contributions, she is a sought-after expert in media, frequently sharing insights on children and family issues at both local and national levels.
Dr. Robert Jason Grant is the creator of AutPlay® Therapy. He is a therapist, supervisor, and consultant and utilizes several years of advanced training and his own lived neurodivergent experience to provide affirming services to children and their families. He is an international trainer and keynote presenter and multi-published author of several articles and books. He is currently serving on the board of directors for the Association for Play Therapy.