Episode 60: Jamie Mariah, Ph.D.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Like one of the contributors in Dissociation Made Simple, the Melissa's say, our stories have been told by people who don't really know us.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to What Your Therapist Is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. This episode will be the last for season six, which means we spoke with 30 authors this year. It has been a lot of reading and editing, so I'm going to take a break for a few weeks. But we'll be back later this winter as I already have Season 7 recorded and 8 is scheduled. So, while I'm on break, make sure you scroll through the book topics wherever you are listening because I'm sure there's something for everyone in the past episodes. Before you do that, though, listen to my conversation with a Jamie Marich PhD about her book, The Dissociation Made Simple: A Stigma Free Guide to Embracing your Dissociative Mind and Navigating Life. Dr. Marich speaks internationally on EMDR therapy, trauma, addiction, dissociation, expressive arts, yoga, and mindfulness, and runs a private practice and online training network in her home base of Akron, Ohio. Dr. Marich has written numerous books and has won numerous awards for LGBTQ plus and mental health advocacy, specifically in reducing stigma around dissociative disorders through the sharing of her own lived experience. And after today's episode, make sure you head on over on social media @therapybookspodcast to find out about the latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome, Jamie.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Thank you, Jessica. Appreciate the invitation.
Jessica Fowler: Well, I am excited to talk about this topic of dissociation, but as we talked about, and as my listeners now, I like to start the interviews with a question. Can you share a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: I am so grateful. I grew up in an era before smartphones and tablets. And because so many of my early memories were going to the library, my mom and I went at least once a week to a library in Youngstown, Ohio, where I grew up. And it was just a very magical place to me. I can still remember the smell of it. And I would check out several books a week and would be eager to see what I could do the following week. And I did programs at the library. So, books were just introduced to my life very early and they were, and maybe it's cheesy to say they were friends to me, but I think a lot of them certainly were because they helped me learn about different worlds, different people's experiences, especially when I was growing up in a very isolated environment. And I think they just helped me cultivate my sense of magic and imagination.
Jessica Fowler: I don't think it's, I think looking at it as friends, like I ask this question all the time and so many find. You know, they may not have said it in that way of friends, but the companionship that happens with reading.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes, companionship's a beautiful word.
Jessica Fowler: That it just can bring that sense of loneliness to not be so alone.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes, and so much so, I remember a few years back when that original library structure was torn down. Fortunately, a new library was built in its place. There was a grief that came for me, for sure. Because the, that library was certainly one of my happy places as a kid.
Jessica Fowler: I just had a memory of my original library when you said that.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: I love it.
Jessica Fowler: It was in an old church. Um, so I remember that and then that actually building is still here, but they built another one. So, so let's talk about this idea of, well, the book Dissociation Made Simple. But for our listeners who may not have an understanding of what dissociation is, how can you maybe make it simple for them to understand?
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: My 101 breakdown of dissociation, talking about books and words and libraries, I didn't mention yet that I started as an English teacher. Before I even studied therapy. So I love language and I like to look at any clinical construct we're talking about first from the viewpoint of language. Where do we get this English word dissociation?
So dissociation as it was translated into English from Pierre Jeunet's original coining of the term in French. Dissociation comes from a Latin root, which means dissociation. The Latin root is dissocia, but the definition is to sever or to divide. So, with that big long lead up, we'll go back to the 101. That dissociation is to sever or to divide. So, I like to ask therapists or people in the general public who are wanting to learn more about dissociation. What is it we are severing or dividing from? And traditionally what people answer with and what I'm getting at is we sever from the present moment from our present reality. If that present moment or that present reality is too overwhelming, if it's painful, if it's traumatic, if it's boring, those can all be reasons that our mind wants to go somewhere else. And that form of dissociation I believe is the type all human beings have experienced at one point or another in their life. And even if we're not going through major traumas or upheavals, a mild amount of dissociation can be normal. I think in other contexts and where it tends to get more confusing is the severing or dividing from the self from parts or aspects of self. So, when we talk about the mind, body, the spirit being disconnected, that can be a subtle form of dissociation when we as therapists discuss parts work or get into, uh, clinically significant dissociative disorders like dissociative identity disorder. That is probably the most clinically profound form of severing or separation that we see yet all of these forms that I talked about just now serve a couple key purposes, to protect ourselves or to help us get our needs met. So, I think that's something even someone with DID may have in common with somebody who's lived a pretty stable life, but can still drift off every now and again, when they're bored or when they're tired or when they're under stress is that we have this protective need meeting response to sever or to divide that is inherent in the, in the human brain.
Jessica Fowler: So, can you share some examples of what this might look like? On the right on the like the spectrum of what it could look like for people to have a better understanding?
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: daydreaming is the form of dissociation. I think we have all done. So, I know it's often presented as a spectrum. Admittedly, I think that's a little linear, but. I know most people can first understand it as a spectrum. Uh, so daydreaming your attention, wandering off, sometimes it's talked about as highway hypnosis, when you have driven a bit of highway and you don't remember having driven it because you weren't present for whatever reason. Uh, that would dissociation. I believe we've all experienced. And then, you know, I would maybe ask us to go up to the pandemic because even reflecting back on four years ago, think about when the world was in a state of upheaval. How did you cope? How did you adapt? And sometimes was the easiest thing to do to just binge into Netflix for an extended period of time. And so binging, for instance, whether it's binging a TV series, binging a podcast. Scrolling on the internet, for instance, those are often framed as forms of dissociation. The reason I'm bringing those up is all of those, I believe, can be some degree of helpful or unhelpful. So, for instance, when a lot of us are in high stress situations, for example, I have a very hard time standing in line at the store. Sometimes it's the sensory input of all the noise around me and because of a knee injury, I have a hard time standing. Yes, I can do my breathing exercises, maybe a few stretches, but it can always be helpful to scroll on my phone when I'm there standing in line. Uh, I know when I have days off and I'm able to just relax on the couch, uh, and just be, binging a show could actually be very helpful. But if I was binging the show so long that I didn't show up for work, that's when we're thinking of it more in these unhelpful or perhaps more maladaptive terms. And then even the whole parts idea, if it's helpful to look at that as a continuum as well, I think we can because DID and having separate and distinct identities, some of which are not aware of each other are often seen as the more extreme end of the spectrum, but I would argue that a lot of therapists I interact with, let alone the clients that we treat can also engage in a subtle parts based dissociation when the head is so divorced from what is happening in the body and in the heart and in the feelings. And oftentimes as therapists, even as human beings, it can be more comforting to retreat into logic. When the feelings become overwhelming, so that is a aspect of parts work that I don't think a lot of us consider that I would like us to.
Jessica Fowler: Can you share a little bit more about parts for the listeners who may not know kind of even what that language means.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Well, parts is is a very generic term. You know, there's a lot of models in modern psychotherapy that do work with parts or aspects of self. And probably the most basic example I can give. I've highlighted already this kind of mind body spirit that often as therapists, we like to fancy ourselves as holistic and we work with the totality of the person, the mind, the body, maybe their heart and their emotions and their spirit. Okay. But those can even be seen as like four distinct aspects of self that. Sometimes have a little more unification and cohesion, and a lot of times are just kind of walled off from each other, and that can cause some problems. I think a most basic example that just about anybody in the general public can get is when we talk about having an inner child or a little one inside. Even Hollywood movies will reference that. Hollywood movies that don't poorly portray dissociation, I should say, will even reference that. That, you know, I have, I have an inner child or an inner little one. And so, I think that's a way to look at parts that maybe we can all understand. Um, the, the franchises inside out did a wonderful job of showing how these very basic emotional states can exist as ego states within us. And ego states is, is another way that, that we can look at parts. A lot of these languages will vary model to model. Uh, but it really just is that this idea that we are. You know, in, in IFS, Dick Schwartz would use this language of we're a mosaic mind that we're not just a mono mind that, that there are different pieces that compose us. And I would just add that learning to befriend these different pieces and not try to shun them away is, is a way that we can lead towards wholeness and growth.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. And it is, I think it's just one of those things that even before somebody does this work, often even uses parts language, like part of me wants to do this and doesn't want to do that.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes. And to that point, that reminded me, a lot of clinicians will ask me, well, how do we even bring up parts work with clients? A lot of it is just listen to their language because most folks that I have worked with will have something like what you just said. In their language now, part of me wants to get sober, a part of me thinks it's I, I don't want to like I deserve to drink, uh, so listen for when people will use that language because it is very much a part of, of how we, we speak.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, part of me wants to go back to school. Part of me doesn't part of me wants to be in this relationship. Part of me doesn't.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: And another, just wanted to add another way that may come out in language is, well, on one hand, I want to get sober and on the other hand, I don't. That's another indicator for a person kind of using this parts idea.
Jessica Fowler: So looking at this book, who, what kind of, when you open it up, if you can maybe sort of structure it for what the readers are getting.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yeah. I truly wrote Dissociation Made Simple as a book that anybody could read and benefit from. So, so many of my previous books were written more so for clinicians or people in leadership positions. Uh, some of them had some general public appeal, but this one I really wanted anybody who was a member of the general public to pick it up and read, to learn and discover more about dissociation and their relationship with it. It's something I hope clients can be able to pick up and do that with too. Now I do have a separate appendix in the back for therapists. Uh, but I think, you know, this from having read the book that I am big on therapist, you have to do this work yourself first before we can guide clients through it. So, I encourage clients to go through, I mean, sorry, I encourage therapists to to go through the book the first time for themselves, doing some of the exercises, asking yourself some of the introspective questions. And then of course, I have some content in the appendix for therapists and I have a separate appendix for family members, for folks I could call trusted others. But even for them, I encourage you to do this work for yourself first, because if you can learn where dissociation shows up in your life, because it does.
Jessica Fowler: Mm hmm.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: It will likely be less mystifying when you are guiding other folks through this work.
Jessica Fowler: Well, and so, um, I was actually talking to some therapists about this. This is actually my, well, I don't know. There's two of us. I have a therapist book club. There's, this was on our 2TBR list for two of us. So, we're not sure who actually came up with it.
Cause then we have to who gets to pick the next one. So we're reading this book for my therapist book club. So I'll let you know how that goes when we meet, next week, actually. But, um, I was talking to some other therapists about this book and I said, the one thing that I really liked about this book and I thought was maybe a little bit of, or was part of maybe your mission of doing this book was to normalize it and to make therapists not so afraid of dissociation.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes, that is accurately put, because if we're speaking of and I want to say this very carefully, acknowledging the role that a lot of other books on dissociation have had in the clinical and academic establishment of dissociation. I find a lot of books that are out there, like you mentioned Structural Dissociation Theory, a lot of those books from the Architects of Structural Dissociation Theory to be not accessible for clients. Or to be even me as a clinician, I'll be at a clinician with a dissociative disorder myself. I get very frustrated reading books in that kind of overly academic, overly clinical language, because, and I share this in Dissociation Made Simple, part of that frustration comes from as a person with a dissociative disorder, I can feel like the academics and the scholars are trying to turn me into a science project. And for years, as I've sat through these trainings and, and read these books, I have this sense of you're making this so much harder than it needs to be just, just talk to us, just listen to us, just get to know us. And that's why I was really committed in Dissociation Made Simple, not only to share a little bit of my own story, but to bring in interviews from 61 folks who I call contributors who wanted to share some of their story as well.
Jessica Fowler: Well, that's what I was going to say. The other thing that I really appreciated about this book and I think how you did that was from these contributors to just hear from people of what their experience has been like and what they would want from their therapist, which I thought was so helpful.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yeah, I have this statement that I use in some of my social media before you judge us, how about getting to know us because there's a lot of misconception out there, especially about what dissociative disorders are, because I will say dissociation has become more of a recognized term, just like trauma has become more of a recognized term. I mean, I think there's still some way to go with dissociation being more, uh, identified and recognized yet with dissociative disorders, even amongst therapists, there can be this sense of it's the hardest thing to treat. It's, uh, you know, you better be careful and Like one of the contributors and dissociation made simple the Melissa's say our stories have been told by people who don't really know us and I hope that Dissociation Made Simple has been the first of many works because it's it's heartening for me now to see so many more professionals with lived experience and people with lived experience speaking out so I hope the book is the first of many works that just tries to humanize this even more.
Jessica Fowelr: I think we can say that really about any topic is that we, when it comes to research and sharing that we really need to listen to the people with lived experience, like they need to be at the table sharing, like that's for many, many topics of that we work on in therapy. So..
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes, well put.
Jessica Fowler: And the other thing that I was going to say too, is that what I really liked at the end of each chapter, you have your questions for your therapist and your psychiatrist to really kind of challenge to bring to awareness to the therapist that you're doing your own work and your own research to challenge them to do this work too, if they haven't, which I thought was really great.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yes, and the reason I put those questions in there is people with dissociative disorders are used to doing their own advocacy. Uh, especially with psychiatrists, which is a profession, it's, it's getting better, but there's still a lot of old dissociations, not real or D. I. D. sspecially is, is not a real thing and something that I've really come to learn, especially. From getting to know the wider community is I'm very lucky that I had two therapists in my main clinical journey who both understood dissociation dissociative disorders right away, but I am lucky, privileged, blessed, use whichever word fits better for you because that is not the normative experience that on average, it takes people with dissociative identity disorder, something like seven to eight years to get an accurate diagnosis. And a lot of that is because of misunderstanding or fear of what dissociation really is. And, uh, I would say if you ask these questions, and a person is coming back at you with, well, no, I'm the expert, you don't have a right to ask questions. You're probably not in the right place.
Jessica Fowler: No, definitely not. Well, I even say too, and I heard you speak about this too. And like EMDR, um, has become very popular as a way to treat trauma. So more popular in the way that people know to ask for it. And so, I always say too, that if you are going for, if you're looking for a therapist for EMDR, always ask if they do parts work because you stress how not everybody has that training with the dissociation with EMDR.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Yeah, and I would say with EMDR, even more than parts work, I would say, how comfortable are you working with dissociation because a lot of people out there have done like the latest, greatest parts work training. But it is very formulaic and to me that can be a problem to like, well, I do IFS and I do IFS in this way, or I do. This is how I was trained to do parts work and parts work is just a general description. My bigger interest is how, how comfortable are you working with dissociation, which can include parts work? Uh, cause that's where I think you'll be in, in good hands with an EMDR therapist. And, and also even more than that is how willing are you to kind of learn with me? As we go, because I think a lot of us, especially with dissociative disorders, don't like to be put into the box of any one modality. And so, if any EMDR therapist is saying, well, I use IFS to do parts work, or I use structural dissociation to do parts work to ask, are you willing and able to make modifications if your model doesn't seem to be a good fit for me.
Jessica Fowler: So that's actually something I really appreciated about this book. If you can maybe talk about all the different ways that you've highlighted. Different ways to heal that it isn't necessarily always has to be this one way of going to therapy that you shared some experiences from contributors or yourself of ways of healing.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Sure. Well, a lot of contributors have gotten very real about some of the basics, like just being outside, being in nature, uh, being with my animals is a wonderful healing support. Um, and, and we certainly will cover that or do cover that in the book in talking about what we might consider to be grounding or anchoring, or how do I help myself navigate day to day life? And then when we get into what has helped me really kind of clear the trauma, there wasn't any one therapy that was really identified as, as the therapy that there were a lot of possibilities of therapies that were able to work. The key though, like whether you were looking at EMDR or IFS somatic work, yoga-based work, energetic based work, spiritual based work is the willingness of the provider to be human, to get to know the individual and to modify. Uh, I'm remembering a contributor who said, if you want to work with me, you have to throw your textbook out the window and really love that insight.
Jessica Fowler:I love that. What would you say anything else that the listeners should know about Dissociation Made Simple?
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: would say, pick it up. If you're a therapist who has been frustrated by Maybe you don't know you're frustrated it could be that when you hear the word dissociation you get worried you get scared you get I just don't understand it or I don't want to do more harm a lot of that frustration fear trepidation and navigating dissociation could be and how it's been introduced to you and so in this book I hope to introduce it to you in very human language. And bring in the human language of my, not to say folks who have written other books aren't human, but I would say their lens is more academic. And even though I have that academic training, I do think there is a level of, dare I say, dissociation involved when one is writing academically because there is this deliberate, I want to keep it rational, I want to keep it so the scientific community will understand it and accept it and appreciate it. And it can be really cut off or dissociated from emotion, lived experience, and the heart of this work, the heart and soul of this work.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, wonderful. That seems like a great place to end. Thank you so much for coming on today to talk about Dissociation Made simple, Simple. What is the best place for our listeners to be able to connect?
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: So a couple places you can connect, you can go to my website, jamiemarich.com, and that links you to all of the different things I do. If you're interested in me for EMDR training or other kinds of training, InstituteforCreativeMindfulness.com Uh, and then I also have a website, redefine therapy.com, which is resources.
So I link all podcast interviews on there, free videos that I make available and other supplementary articles connected to the work that I put out there. And if you're on the socials, just search my name. I'll come up on most of the platforms.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Well, thank you.
Jamie Marich, Ph.D: Our pleasure. Thanks for having us.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Jamie Marich, Ph.D. (she/they) speaks internationally on EMDR therapy, trauma, addiction, dissociation, expressive arts, yoga, and mindfulness, and runs a private practice and online training network in her home base of Akron, OH. Marich has written numerous books, notably Trauma and the 12 Steps: An Inclusive Guide to Recovery, Dissociation Made Simple: A Stigma-Free Guide to Embracing Your Dissociative Mind and Navigating Life, and most recently, You Lied to Me About God: A Memoir. She has won numerous awards for LGBT+ and mental health advocacy, specifically in reducing stigma around dissociative disorders through the sharing of her own lived experience.