Episode 59: Chris Gamble
Chris Gamble: Different, different people from different backgrounds coming into the field may have different experiences that shed light on some of the realities that may get glossed over in our field.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome to What Your Therapist is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. Today we are speaking with Chris Gamble. Chris is a licensed professional counselor and author of Tales of a Black Therapist. Chris aims to use storytelling and education to shift the narratives shaping our systems of mental health care. He resides in Washington, D. C. After today's episode, make sure you head on over to social media @therapybookspodcast to find out about our latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back listeners. Today we are speaking with Chris Gamble about his book, Tales of a Black Therapist.
Welcome, Chris.
Chris Gamble: Thanks for having me on.
Jessica Fowler: So, I'm excited to talk about this book, but as you know, I like to start with the question, can you share about a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Chris Gamble: Yes. So, I've thought a lot about this. Um, I really, I've always been an avid reader, uh, from childhood till now. I'd just always enjoyed reading. I think I get my love of reading from my mom. She always has a book in her hand. Um, I'm sure she's probably reading a book right now. Um, but yeah, I think it was just a way with fiction reading was a way to just kind of step into another world. Um, and with nonfiction for me is a way to, to learn more about our world. So yeah, books have just always been a big part of my life. I think something that. Still to this day lets me know that I'm a big book person is I have this recurring dream. I wouldn't call it nightmare, but a recurring dream that I have sometimes. Where I'm in a bookstore and I just can't find a book that I want to read. It's, it's one of those dreams that like, it doesn't end until you wake up. So, I'm like going aisle to aisle, picking up books and just can't find one that I like. And that might be like the nerdiest stress dream ever, but you know, I think that just shows me like, I, I'm a book person for sure.
Jessica Fowler: I would love to hear how that is analyzed.
Chris Gamble: I might be a little scared to hear the answer.
Jessica Fowler: It's a lot of pressure to pick a book.
Chris Gamble: It is. It is.
Jessica Fowler: Well, then how is that for you to like, that's just funny to me to think about, right, this, this dream that you have, and now here you are an author. So thinking about that sort of transition, now you're the one writing the book. What is your hope that this impact will have on its readers?
Chris Gamble: Yeah, um, and it's interesting because I, I never really had an idea of being an author. Like it wasn't something I would have guessed that I would have done. Um, it just sort of, sort of happened, but the impact that I'm hoping for, uh, with this book, I really want it to be something that offers just a different perspective on our field, on the mental health field that gives what I hope is a little, maybe a dose of reality that maybe we don't typically get. I think that therapists are known to write more, more of the clinical style books, maybe self-help journals, things of that nature. So, I wanted to offer something different, um, in a fictional format, which we can talk more about but, um, yeah, I wanted to, to give readers a sense of like, so on the back of the book, the question at the top is what does it take to be a black therapist? And so, I really want people to be able to gain an understanding of what that experience is like, um, and how different, different people from different backgrounds coming into the field may have different experiences that shed light on some of the realities that may get glossed over in our field.
Jessica Fowler: Which I think you do in this book, so can you share a little bit more about that and because this is a novel? Can you share about how you wrote this book and what sort of happens in the book? So, our readers know?
Chris Gamble: Yeah, sure. So Tales of a Black Therapist is the story of a counselor named Drew. He has been 10 years and at this point, uh, feels that he wants to share his wisdom, share what he's learned. And he chooses to do that by starting a mentoring group for black male college students who wants to become therapists. And so, he's, he's having a hard time finding students that are a good fit for the group, um, until he meets this student named Amir. Now with Amir, Drew sees that the student is, is a really good fit for the group. And he also sees a little bit of himself in Amir, but. Maybe not necessarily in the best way. He sees that. Amir has a similar mindset that Drew had himself coming into the field that led to a lot of different challenges for him. And so, as a way to help Amir navigate those things and not come up against those same obstacles as he answers the field, uh, Drew tells him this series of stories or tales, um, to, to elaborate on those things. So, in terms of the structure throughout the overarching narrative, there's the series of there's eight short stories or tales. And there of Drew talking about his early career. And so, I got that, that structure in particular was inspired by a book, if people know called Letters to a Young Poet, which kind of like a classic book where it's a it's a poet writing. I think he's writing letters to a soldier that like wants to become a poet and that book is just the series of letters. So, it's a really, really short book. Um, so from that, I kind of got the idea of, okay, instead of letters, I wanted it to be a person telling a story to another person, but you're also getting the story in between this. So that's kind of how it's the, the novel overall with these little stories in between and in terms of why I chose fiction. So. So it's backtracking to just how I, how I chose to, to write this book. Um, I started writing it, uh, in the middle of the pandemic, you know, a lot of downtime, a lot of time to think. And I was, I was coming out of just, uh, a bad job experience, honestly. So, this was around, uh, I guess like August 2020, um, and I was leaving a previous job and I was really just feeling like my, my first few years in the field were just a rollercoaster. And at this point in 2020, it was just so, so much that I really, wanted to take a step back from providing therapy. So I wanted to kind of pivot from clinical work because there was just so much doing a lot of community mental health work. And my job at that time was just very chaotic. And I had this feeling of like, you know, some, someone needs to know about this. I felt like I was the only one having these experiences. I felt like the lessons I was learning were important, and I really wanted to share them. And I was like, I just, I need to write something about this. I didn't know what, I didn't know how. And it's funny, you know, I kind of because the, the feelings around what I was experiencing were so strong, I kind of like just sat at the computer one day and I was like, you know, I'm just going to write something. Of course that didn't happen if you can't, the words don't flow that naturally. Um, and I was, yeah, I didn't know what I wanted to write. It almost felt like I wanted to write like an expose on my job or something, but yeah, just in, in trying different things out, I ended up taking a writing class on how to write short stories. So that, that helped to inspire the structure a little bit. And really randomly, uh, I was watching a animated Batman movie that kind of gave me the final push towards fiction because I was initially just thinking of writing, I don't know, essays or something like that. Um, but something, something about this Batman movie, I think anyone that knows Batman knows there's a lot of psychological things going on, just how him losing his parents and everything. And something about that just made me think like, oh, you don't, you can just like create a story. You can take the lessons that you've learned and put it into a character. And so, yeah, that's how it started. So the, the way I came up with it, the, so the stories really, they really are fictional, it's not just my experiences with names changed, um, cause one, of course, wanting to respect client's privacy, not wanting it to really be a story about me, um, what I would do is even if I started from a real experience, I would thinkig about, okay what was the challenge here? What was the lesson that I learned from it? And then just build a whole new story around that. Um, so that was a way to still share the truth of like what I've learned, but through this character that is separate from me.
Jessica Fowler: And so in it, I, I like the way that it was structured. Actually, I thought, because I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to share some knowledge for people to be aware through this story. It's a different way of doing it instead of a clinical book.
Chris Gamble: Right.
Jessica Fowler: And it was, it was powerful in that way. And so, it's called Tales of a Black Therapist. Can you share some of the insights that you want people to know?
Chris Gamble: Yeah. Yeah. So I, another thing, just the, another thing that inspired me to write this book was, uh, really, really with the start of the pandemic, I feel like there was a, even bigger push for bringing more black therapists into the field. Um, there, there's always been that, that need, but I think it was just highlighted more as the pandemic was going on. And also the, the coinciding, uh, things with, you know, police brutality and racial justice and just how that was highlighted of the, the mental health effects of that. And I feel like there are some, I think, I think there's some mis misconceptions about what black therapists offer or what is, I should say, maybe what is asked of them. So, I think one of the things I wanted to highlight through this book was that there, there is a lot put on us where we're coming into a field where starting from grad school, you know, clearly a lot of the theories and practices are going to be from either European or white American people where it can, it can make it seem like, okay, no one, no one from my background has, has ever, you know, come up with any theories about psychology or how to help people, which just isn't true. And it takes this process where after It's only after grad school or being in the field for some years that you come across things like liberation psychology or black psychology in it and it can feel like you were tricked in some way, kind of like, oh, why, why didn't I learn about this? And there can be a lot of pressure as well I think for black therapists to feel that they are coming into almost in a way, like save our own communities, but then coming to the realization that a lot of the, mental health outcomes that we're seeing, of course, are not just this individual level thing of how somebody's brain is working or something, but, uh, just structurally how there may be lack, lack of resources or just different things impacting people that different upstream things that then lead to these, these different mental health outcomes. And so I really wanted to give a perspective of with, with all these things, considering all these things, what is it like to actually be a black therapist? What are the things that you're going to encounter? Um, there's a couple stories in there that highlight just how, how people talk about black clients, which is something that I have experienced many times where there's just judgments or assumptions made and what it's like to have to navigate that in a workplace where maybe it's someone in a position of power, um, or even if it's a coworker on your same level, it's like, you know, how do you, how do you respond to these things? Uh, how does it impact you to hear people, uh, have these judgments and, and place these things on, on clients? Um, Yeah,
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, it was, it. You wrote it in that way, too, that it felt like the narrative of it, I could see, I can see that perspective, right, of how that is playing out and what that, and you talked about the struggle of how to address that, which I thought was really important.
Chris Gamble: Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't know if I have, you know, it's something that I still think about, like, well, what is the way to, to respond to these things? Um, and, and writing these stories was a way for me, because I think as a, a first-time author, there, there are a lot of times that you are just trying to kind of insert yourself into the story, kind of write what you know. Um, but it's in these moments where, you know, it really made me realize like, oh, okay. This character drew is different from me because I, the way I may respond to this is different from this character. Um, so trying to figure out how he's navigating these things was, was interesting. There's one story where he's, uh, telling his family about something that happened at work and it's his, his grandmother that kind of helps him, uh, process some things about like just realizing what, what a client's experience is before they even meet their therapist and realizing that there's this, this whole person that the therapist doesn't doesn't know before they walk into the room. And so how that can lead to people having assumptions, um, and just, yeah, how, how that plays a role in what he was experiencing, hearing a colleague make a judgment about a client. And so, yeah, I think it's something where It is an ongoing, uh, task that, that black people in this field have. Um, and I think it's, it's something that we sort of have to support each other in a lot of times of just, just finding what is the way to address this and sometimes even what are the risks of addressing it and wanting to like maintain a job, maintain your, your standing with colleagues, but also not wanting to allow client, even if it's not your own client, wanting, not wanting someone else's clients to be harmed by the judgments or assumptions that someone else has.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Who should be reading your book?
Chris Gamble: I would prefer everybody, but the primary audience I would say is anyone who finds themselves in the shoes of Drew or Amir, so the primary audience would be Black students, either college or grad students, that want to become therapists. Black therapists already in the field, I think they can just see a lot of their experiences reflected in this. Um, I do think people outside of, of those groups can still gain something from it. I think anyone in the mental health field can benefit from just getting some insight, getting an insider's view of what it's like to be a black therapist. I think for people outside of the field, it's like, if you've ever wondered what it's like to be a therapist, I think this is a good book for that. And not, not necessarily in a clinical sense, but just uh, more like therapist as human, just like what, what is it for this person that is providing therapy to do this thing? What, what impact does it have? What other things are they going through in their lives? Um, what are all the things that they're navigating? And so, yeah, I think it's, it's just the, the main thing that people can get from reading this is that, uh, insider's perspective.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I agree with that. I really liked at the end that you had book club. Uh, discussion questions so I can feel like a bunch of therapists reading it and already having the discussion questions there, which I think would be a really great tool for therapists.
Chris Gamble: Right? Right. Yeah. I wanted to have somewhat of a guide just to help people reflect on the themes of the various stories in there. Um, and yeah, and have those discussions and come up with their their own answers to things because the way the way drew you navigated things isn't, isn't the way that I would do it necessarily and may not be the way other people, uh, would approach things. So, yeah, I think those questions were just a way to, to provide that opportunity for people to reflect.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, it's just one perspective of one character in a story.
Chris Gamble: Right, right, right.
Jessica Fowler: Anything else the listeners should know?
Chris Gamble: Um, I think just in terms of there, there are, there is one big takeaway that I wanted to shared with people. So just in terms of what I would say is the core, the core message, one that the core message that drew is giving to Amir, but also that I'm giving to the readers, uh, there's a metaphor that's used towards the end of the book where he talks about the mental health field like, a used car. Um, and so the point with the used car metaphor is it's like that commercial show me the car faxs. I think that people entering this field really anybody, but in particular black therapists. I just want people to know a little bit more of the truth. When you're buying a used car, you want to know how many miles are on it. How many accidents has it been in? Does it pull to the left? You know, all those kind of things where I just I want people to come into the field with A clear eyed view. I would not, I wouldn't discourage anybody from entering the field. I just want them to come in knowing what it is that they're stepping into so that they can navigate any obstacles they come across, make, make decisions for themselves that align with their values and make, really make this career sustainable. I think that's a big thing. Uh, I, myself, and this is another point where myself and Drew diverge, uh, clearly Drew, he's been in the field for 10 years. And for me, after only four years, I decided I needed to pivot away from clinical work just because I, I needed a break from providing therapy. Um, and I'm still still in that break. You know, I'm still open to coming back to clinical work at some point, but I think having some of the guidance that he's giving Amir would have been really helpful for me in the beginning, just to know what obstacles I would come across and different ways to approach my career in a way to make it sustainable. So yeah, that's, that's just one of the big takeaways that I want to make sure readers are aware of.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, that's a great takeaway. Cause that really is like what the book is doing, kind of letting Amir know, like, this is what it could be like some struggles that you may have.
Chris Gamble: Right.
Jessica Fowler: I think about. Nice. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on today. What is the best way for our listeners to connect with you?
Chris Gamble: So I am on Instagram as Chris underscore the counselor, and then my publishing company's website is blank passage LLC. com.
Jessica Fowler: Excellent. Well, thank you.
Chris Gamble: Thanks for having me on.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of what your therapist is reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.