Episode 52: Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Creating a space where people could feel nonjudgment. Where people could feel held. I just really like that word because to me, it makes me think of a container where people can feel free to just say all the things that are messy.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to What Your Therapist Is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler.
I'm going to provide a trigger warning for this episode. October is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, so we'll be talking about loss. To bring awareness and honor to these stories, today, we will be talking with Emily Souder about her book, Birth Story Held for Loss: A guide for Reflecting on Your Fertility Experience, Miscarriage, Abortion, TFMR, Stillbirth, and Infant Loss.
Emily is a therapist and social worker licensed in Maryland. She is certified in perinatal mental health and has written books to help readers explore and reflect on their birth and perinatal loss experiences and on finding amusement and intuition in their daily lives. She enjoys spending time with her husband and two kids, and time reading, writing, and exploring small surprises of nature.
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Emily, welcome to the show today. I am excited to have you on.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm excited to talk with you about my book today.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. And so we kind of chatted before and I like to start with this question. Can you share about a memory, how reading has impacted you?
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Absolutely. So of course, one of my earliest memories is about being read too. And eventually I started reading on my own, but I always really remember books that, um, my teachers in elementary school would pick and there was one by Julie Edwards or Julia Edwards from the Sound of Music. I think she went by Andrews then, but then her last name was Edwards later. She wrote a book called The Last of the Really Great Wangdoodle. And it was this really, um, it was this book that really transported you to this other world. And I remember being just drawn in and it felt really. It felt, for lack of a better word, it felt cozy and it felt warm and interesting. And I remember having a similar experience when I started reading on my own with books like A Wrinkle in Time by Madeline L'Engle and, um, just feeling really, um, like warmly held by this other world or story. And so both of those had that in common. And that's for sure one of my earliest memories.
Jessica Fowler: So it's so interesting that you say that because I'm maybe going to answer my next question for you as a reader of your book is that I felt like this book held you and that's in the title. Um, I do. I feel like that that it was such a way to just slowly go and be held through this process of such, you know, what traumatic event?
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love that you call that out and that you experienced that because that was one of my biggest aims with this project was making a space, creating a space where people could feel nonjudgment. Where people could feel held. I just really like that word because to me it makes me think of a container where people can feel free to just say all the things that are messy, that might not feel pretty to say, that might not be quote unquote right to say, but they can do all of it there and kind of let everything all hang out. While, um, as the writer I didn't want to take up too much space with my own stories or things like that. I wanted it to be about the reader while also Hopefully creating a presence that helps people feel, um, you know, a nonjudgmental, fully accepting witness at the same time, if that makes sense. So that was sort of my my goal with with this project.
Jessica Fowler: I definitely think it came across like that and you give permission to sort of slow down and to take some space and compassion and it I think held is such a great word for it because that's what it felt like you.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Thank you. I'm really, really glad it was received that way when you read it.
Jessica Fowler: So when we're talking about infant loss, you talk about a whole range in the book. I was wondering if you can kind of if you can share what's in the book when your readers open it.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, of course, you know, there might be ways that folks define their loss in a way that I wasn't able to, to show in the book, but I really wanted to identify different types of loss, loss experience, anything from fertility experiences to, um, to miscarriage, to abortion, to TFMR or termination for medical reasons, um, stillbirth, infant loss. Yeah. All of these things that have their own unique nuances that people can feel really seen in their experiences and knowing that some people have experienced multiples of these things. And that not everybody might feel comfortable using the word birth or baby. And I know birth is in the title. Um, the aim of that was really helping people feel that like, you know, if they did go through a birth experience that like, yes, that is birth and you're allowed to call it that, and you're allowed to claim it as that. Um, and for other people who don't quite feel like that word is right for them, or if maybe it's not right for them to use, that there's full permission for them to choose another word for their story, because it's theirs, it's not mine. Um, but yeah, so each of these little pathways, each of these theme’s kind of have I tried to create pathways for each one to be explored. Um, it doesn't have to be all at once, but as feels tolerable, and as you feel ready to do it, to be able to go down those pathways and find you know, questions that kind of gently encourage you to reflect around each one.
Jessica Fowler: Yes. And so you have it set up that you have a section in the beginning that kind of talks about this and then you section it off into different topics. So, like we said, one was. NICU, or I'm not sure if you said that, so we'll use NICU as an example, where you have a section and you talk about that, and then you have each section, I think, I think at most it's maybe like 12 prompts or something like that.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Oh, within a section, yeah, yeah, I don't think it's more than that.
Jessica Fowler: And so then it provides the opportunity for someone to reflect and write, and then at the end. Even more opportunity and you set up the book to get permission, like you might want to go to this section or this section may not apply to you, you might want to head over to this section, which was just a nice reminder because it's, it's something that not everyone has experienced these type of losses in this way, but they've experienced part of it. And so it's just a way to be able to go through. And like you said, even multiples, maybe you've had one, yeah miscarriage, but maybe, you know, then you had something else happen and it allows permission and a place for that to be.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Exactly and I didn't want it to be like writing a prescription for how to go through I offer some suggestions, but I really want to come back to the knowing, um, of the reader to be the expert in their experience and to be able to navigate and be kind of, um, like I'm sort of. Like a assistant traveler, I guess, of some sort in the in the journey, but, um, that they are sort of the wayfarer that they are the one who knows best and can intuit where where to go next.
Jessica Fowler: What made you decide to write this book?
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Um, well, so back when, so I, I originally published a similar book, um, for birth story experience reflection in originally in 2017 and, uh, an updated version since then, and was asked a lot, whether the questions would um, be appropriate to use in situations of perinatal loss. And my answer was always sort of like, well, parts of it, yes, but it would have to be done in a very conscious way where, you know, if you were the therapist, say you were working on it in therapy, that you would have to be really conscious of like the questions that you chose and, um, I can see how that would be sort of clunky to move through. And so actually, um, a few years ago, I was chatting with Kylie Hanisch from Return to Zero about kind of creating something and they ended up, she and Betsy Winter ended up writing the foreword for this book, but creating a tool specifically for perinatal loss experience or experiences because they're not all the same, um, to really be able to have like bespoke tools for that, because I didn't really see something quite like that that existed. Um, there are certainly wonderful memory books and some that have even come out more recently, but I hadn't seen anything around the story quite like this. And, um, and so I always feel really motivated to fill an unmet need. That's why the original book, Birth Story Brave, came out also to fill this, this need. I think I'm really motivated also just by, yeah, like by service, by serving folks, particularly around, you know, emotional, um, growth and or holding to come back to that word.
Jessica Fowler: It reminds me very much about the art of holding with Karen Kleinman.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah, yeah, there is something I really liked that book and I think it's one of the biggest gifts as therapists that we can give our clients. Is to be able to be the holding space and not holding container. Um, I know she talks a lot in that book about, like, more challenging things, but, like, even in those cases, the people who haven't been held other places or, you know, and with perinatal loss stories, a lot of people don't know how to hold that. And so how cool that we get to be that place for people. Yeah, it's hard. And we need support around that and doing our own work around being able to be that container. And like, what an amazing thing to be able to offer that to our client.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Being able to, that is so much of the work since I told you before, and I said on this podcast, this is my area that is a lot of the work is holding space for these things that happen because they're, they're just really difficult.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Even though it might be a little obvious, who is this book for?
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah, so this book is for birthing folks who experienced, um, many different types of perinatal loss. Like I said, I know there are probably some things that I didn't quite think of, but I aimed to, to reach a number of people and their loss experiences, whether that, you know, anything from again, like even a fertility journey and fertility experiences were things sidn't work out as planned, um, for as you hoped rather to, um, and, and it doesn't even have to be a recent thing. This could be something that you're, you've been carrying with you for years and maybe hasn't had a voice yet. Maybe it hasn't been able, that voice or that part of you hasn't been able to tell the story around it, so whether that's a story around fertility or infertility, around miscarriage, around abortion, around termination for medical reasons, um, around infant loss and stillbirth, like all of these things can, can be carried with us, and so it doesn't even have to be something that just happened, like, that could be something if you're ready, if it just happened recently, and you're ready, sometimes people aren't ready right away. And that's okay. But even if it's something that happened several years ago, I think that's still appropriate. And, um, I wanted it to be a really safe place for um, birthing folks who identify in all sorts of ways to be able to enter into.
Jessica Fowler: Anything else the reader should know about your book.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: I think one of the things is that, you know, it's like when you're going through and if you think of another direction to go off on or you think of other questions, I didn't like follow those, you know, again, follow, follow your knowing about where your story goes. I just tried to be. Um, like I said, sort of a guide or even more of like a partner, but it's okay if you need to take a break in the middle of it and come back. Or like I said, follow a completely different story and a different direction for a little bit. Trust your knowing, go at your pace, slow down with it. There's no need to rush through. I think another thing that we, as therapists, kind of need to remind our clients sometimes, and this goes for those who read the book as well, is like, this doesn't make your story go away, and it doesn't make the pain go away. And my hope is too that it allows your story to expand and be integrated in new ways that perhaps either changes your relationship to the discomfort and pain and grief, um, or even gives you permission for it to be there more. But so, um, just to kind of set the expectation, because I know sometimes, you know, when we're looking to like, move through something. We don't want it to hurt anymore. And, um, so while I can't make that go away, I really hope that it can be supportive for folks who are moving through that.
Jessica Fowler: It can be part of the journey.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yes. Absolutely, it can. It's not, it is not a fun one, but it's a necessary one.
Jessica Fowler: Well, and this, like we said in the beginning, is a place to just hold that space for you.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Exactly.
Jessica Fowler: It's your own space. It's your own space.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's something we don't, we don't get enough. Um, you know, some of us are really blessed with friendships where we can do that or certain relationships that we can have that held space. But a lot of us. don't have enough of it. And so, take up the space, take up the space. You're allowed to do that.
Jessica Fowler: Definitely. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Where can our listeners connect with you?
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. So mostly platform wise. I'm not great about posting all the time, but, um, I do have an Instagram, it's overstimulated.mom. therapist, and that's my Instagram page, but, um, and for now, most of my books are available, um, they are available, um, through Amazon, so I know that you said that you would share the information at least for, um, the full title, but Birth Story Held for Loss and Birth Story Brave Reimagined are both available there, um, in both paperback and in, um, Kindle versions, if that suits you better.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Well, thank you.
Emily Souder, LCSW-C, PMH-C: Thank you so much.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of what your therapist is reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.