Episode 51: Kelli Sandman-Hurley, Ed.D.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: When we kind of repeat this rhetoric that we're not going to identify anyone until third grade, or they, um, they'll just outgrow it, or boys will be boys, or they haven't found a book they like yet, all the things I've heard over the years, um, you're really putting all of the onus back on the person. So, you're kind of blaming the student for not learning to read yet.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome to What Your Therapist is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. This month is Dyslexia Awareness Month. I am so excited to have on Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley. She's the author and founder of the Dyslexia Training Institute. She co-created and produced Dyslexia for a Day, Assimilation of Dyslexia, as well as writing the well received books, Dyslexia Advocate! How to Advocate for a Child with Dyslexia Within the Public Education System, and Dyslexia and Spelling, making sense of it all, and The Adult Side of Dyslexia.
As someone who's become passionate about this topic, I'm excited to dive in today about Dyslexia Advocate. If you are enjoying these episodes and would like to support the podcast, the best way is to leave us a five-star review. And make sure you head on over to at Therapy Books podcast on social media to find out about the latest giveaway.
And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. for listening. Welcome back, listeners. Today, we are speaking with Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley about her book, Dyslexia Advocate. Welcome.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jessica Fowler: So, I like to start the podcast with this question. If you could share about a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: So, um, I have been thinking about this question. My initial reaction was, um, I wasn't really sure how to think about it in terms of being a child, but I can think about in terms of being in my early twenties, how reading impacted me. Um, I didn't have trouble learning to read, so I didn't have it. I don't have any memories of it being difficult, but I do have memories of. Coming across a genre of books that changed me. So, I would say that, you know, music and books was, was my, is my dad's love language. And so, he would, um, suggest he's continues to this day to suggest books. And in my twenties, he suggested a bunch of books, um, by Hunter S. Thompson and Jack Kerouac and Charles Bukowski. Well, my sister actually suggested Charles Bukowski and, you know, um, Tom Wolfe. And so, I started reading all of those books and realized that I really, um, identified with like the counterculture kind of thing. You know, when I see, when I see a bunch of people jumping out of bandwagon, I tend to be the first one to jump off.
So, you know, it was kind of that, that reading all of those books helped me connect with my dad a little bit more. And to this day, we still talk about things like that and helped me realize who I am as like a, a person. I don't like to kind of be, and I'm not much of a group person. Follower or like a group joiner, so that, you know, just reading helped me realize all of those things and also helped me connect with my dad and understand him because he's the one who suggested those books in the first place. So that's kind of an odd answer, probably, but..
Jessica Fowler: Oh, no, not at all. I love that, that it was a way for you to connect with your dad.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: To share that together. That's great.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: So, I'm curious if you didn't have struggle with reading. How did you end up in this field of dyslexia?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: That is a very, um, common question I get. So that is because of my experience in the adult literacy world. So I worked in at Read San Diego, which is the adult literacy program of the San Diego public library. So, I worked there for 12 years. And so, it was there that I really. You know, found my calling to really help people before they became the adults.
So I would have, you know, I met hundreds of adults who were struggling with reading and they would sit in my office and tell me their story and they would cry and, you know, they would just tell me all the ways that literacy and low literacy had impacted them and had impacted them in a negative way.
And I'm just like, well, you know, I'm so, I really want to help. And I'm fascinated by language as well. So it was all kind of intertwined. Um, So that, that is why I do it. I do it because of the adults that I met at the adult literacy program.
Jessica Fowler: That makes a lot of sense because you hear a lot of those stories.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: So let's talk about this, the dyslexia advocate. What is your hope of how it impacts people and what is it about?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Okay, so the Dyslexia Advocate was written because as I, um, when I started the Dyslexia Training Institute, we started it thinking that we were just going to train teachers about what dyslexia is, what it isn't, how to help, um, the Orton Gillingham method. And then we opened centers where we could, um, where we were tutoring students. And while we were doing that tutoring, parents were coming in and telling us these stories that were going on at school. And one parent in particular brought me a recording. She said, can you please listen to this? And it was a recording of her IEP meeting.
And so I listened to it and I was not a trained advocate at the time, but I knew that there was something really wrong going on in this meeting. And so, um, I just, after that, I just, um, went and got as much training as I could in advocacy You know, then became an advocate and then just started getting all of this experience, continued to always get as much professional development in as I could. And then one day just realized that I couldn't help everybody myself. So I wanted to put it all in one place where parents could just read it in one place and take it with them. Um, because I was getting calls from all over the country. And so, you know, I wanted to create a resource for parents that they could read themselves and help them. And also for advocates. Um, I've had advocates read it, attorneys read it, parents read it, even teachers read it, and administrators. So, it was just, it's just, I wrote it so it would be a resource to other people so that they wouldn't have to hire somebody like me.
Jessica Fowler: Mm hmm. So, let's, I have a lot to say about this book, but let's slow down a little bit for the people who don't really understand what dyslexia is. Can you share with the audience what dyslexia is?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yeah. So dyslexia is a phonological processing problem that makes it difficult to read and spell words. It was neurological in origin. So, you're born with dyslexia, you die with dyslexia, and it can occur, it occurs on a continuum from mild, mild, moderate, severe to profound. So, you can have people who are really mild and they might just have trouble with spelling and fluency to all the way to the person who has trouble decoding a single syllable word. It has nothing to do with intelligence. People with dyslexia have an average to above average intelligence. So, it's kind of that unexpected, unexpected, um, difficulty with language. So, somebody who seems completely bright, but for some reason that written language is really causing them issues.
Jessica Fowler: So, what are some, like, just a few signs that people should be aware of that could indicate maybe dyslexia?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Um, so in young children, if they're having trouble rhyming, if they're avoiding reading, I did have one student who had his older brother was coming to us for dyslexia therapy and the little brother was in the, in the lobby and mom knew, you know, she had to get on top of it because of his older brother. So, she was reading to him in the lobby and he would hide under the chair. So, you know, you avoiding the reading, the rhyming, um, just not being able to pick up on patterns. So, as they're in like second, third grade, if they're just not picking up on patterns, if they see the word cat in one sentence and they see it in another sentence, and it's like, they'd never seen it before.
Those are all indicators of somebody has dyslexia.
Jessica Fowler: So. Picking up this book when someone picks it up, what's in it?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: So what's in it? The second edition actually has more than the first edition. So there's a brand new second edition, and in the second edition it has a, a historical perspective of IDEA. So how IDEA came into being, why it's in being and where it stands now. It also has, um, the, the most current Supreme Court case, which is Andrew F, which really helps us. Um, be able to advocate for a student's, um, current abilities versus just making sure they get baseline information. They, they get information that is more aligned with their intellectual ability. Then, um, I'm using the wrong words, but then. That they were getting before, um, then right after that, we go into how to assess for dyslexia. So, um, the structure is that, um, needs drive goals and goals drive services. So, we have to determine what the needs are first. So, we start with assessments and then we determine how those assessments have defined the needs and then the needs. To find the goals. So we start with assessments, and then we go into how to write goals, what a good goal is, what a good goal, what a bad goal is, and then we go into services, how to request services, what a good service looks like, what it includes, and then you go into accommodations, and then you go into the 504, which is, um, separate from IDEA. So, if you have a student who doesn't qualify for an IEP, they can get a 504, which would give them accommodations. And then after that, a communication with the school. So it goes in an order of an IEP meeting. So you start off with the assessment and then you go to the goals and then you go to, to the accommodations and the services. You can do the accommodations and the services or the services and the accommodations and then go. So that's the way it's structured.
Jessica Fowler: So, I will say that I needed this book. Before I realized what was going on or before I realized that it was dyslexia. That's what I think a message that I want parents to understand because I knew something was going on. So, I've shared before. I have two kids or two of my three kids to have dyslexia and dysgraphia and I knew like from a very, from kindergarten, first grade, they were getting tutoring and nobody told me dyslexia wasn't on my radar. And I needed this book then to know the process. And then honestly COVID happened and I was like, Oh, okay. Like this is this, I can really see what's happening here now. And I have been to many IEP meetings in my career and I wish that I had this book because you break it down to the process, to what to be looking for, the testing, which was super helpful. The language, because it's a whole new language. It's a whole new language when you start talking about dyslexia and just understanding the process, which I thought was super useful. Like, so if anyone is thinking that their child might have dyslexia and maybe can't afford an advocate or don't know what to do, this is a great starting point of how do I structure? Like, how do I talk to the school? What do I ask for was really helpful.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that. I never thought about it before someone considered that their student might have dyslexia, but that makes complete sense.
Jessica Fowler: Because it's like you give the process of what to do. Right. Right. Where to start.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: What do you do when they tell you you're crazy and they'll just outgrow it? You know, what do you do?
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Or when they sit down and they go over the, um, testing because schools don't really diagnose dyslexia. Right. So you don't know as a parent if your child really has it or not and to help give you questions of this is what I'm asking for because I have yet in this whole process has anyone ever said to me, well, besides we got an IEE, besides the person who did that, sit down and explain what dyslexia is or how the goals should be around dyslexia, right? Like we're getting there. We're getting to that point. But I, I feel very much that often I'm the one who has the information and in sharing you are the people who should be sharing it with me.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes. You know, and I will share that. I just recently did a private training for 10 teachers. So, you know, they, they are all the teachers do take my advocate program a lot. And so I do, the teachers really want this information too. They don't get this information either. So, they're, you know, most, a lot of them are flying by the seat of their pants too, and don't really know what to do either.
Jessica Fowler: It is very much like we have in my experience have had the most amazing teachers. I don't think this is anything about the teachers. Like you said, they're not getting the information.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: And no, no, no, no. Yeah. They want it.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: I just haven't, they haven't had the opportunity yet.
Jessica Fowler: There were a couple of things still want to say that stuck out to me. So, I have, An eighth grader. So we are, you know, we've going through middle school and about to be in high school or in high school very soon. And some of the things that stuck out that I would like you to speak to is that idea of that transition to high school and some of the things that maybe parents can do or administrators can do differently because it does seem that You know, there's a lack of being able to support students.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: So, the first thing we can do at that age is, um, remember that just because someone is going to high school doesn't mean their dyslexia went away. So, if somebody is, you know, 14 years old, 13 years old, and they're still struggling with reading and spelling and they're in middle school or they're in high school, if they still have a need, then they're still. Requiring a service so we can't just throw our hands up in the air and say, Oh, well, we're in high school.
Now we're just going to give them study skills. You know, the IEP requires that there has to be a service that responds to the need. Having said that, that is from the school perspective, from the student's perspective, we have to really include the student in this process. So if you have a 14 year old or a 15 year old who no longer is going to even, you know, give their effort during the session because they're just kind of over it. Then we really need to talk about accommodations and making sure that they use their accommodations and that the school respects their accommodations and just kind of keep an eye on them while they're trying to do it on their own. Um, I will say middle school, um, IEPs have been the absolute hardest IEPs I've ever been to. Um, there's, the problem is that the teachers in middle school and high school are not reading teachers. They're, their content area teachers. And so, you know, that we have to educate them about why the student is struggling and then also why they need their accommodations. On the flip side of that. The student wants, there's nothing more, a student, no student in middle school wants to be different than any other student in middle school. They're a little, they seem to be a little freer in high school to, you know, be a little bit different, but middle school has been really hard to get them to use their accommodations if no one else is using their accommodations. But, you know, and then the other challenge lately is that the schools are all like, well, we all have that technology already, so, you know, I don't need to put it in the IEP. So you need to make sure that they do check it because when a student either changes schools, that they need to have that, um, evidence that they used it before, but if they go in the, to the, um, college entrance, entrance exams, and they want to get accommodations for that, those companies need to see that they have a history of using the accommodation. So that box has to be checked. So, you know, the middle school and the high school, it's, it's a tough, it's a tough situation for dyslexia. But again, I go back to the very first thing I said is we can't just assume that they no longer need the services or they've outgrown their dyslexia because especially if you're twice exceptional gifted students, they're going to have a harder time in high school because now, you know, maybe they're taking an AP class and the reading is a lot more than it was before. So, it might show up more than it did in elementary school. So we have to keep an eye out for things like that.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I've always said that too, because one thing we've always said is or I've always been told is that, you know, they come in with so much knowledge and I was like, yes, at this age, but when they're in high school and doing physics, they're not going to have that background knowledge and that background has helped, right? It's sort of, you know, masked, mastered a little bit.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: But that's, that's going to end at some point.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: And the background knowledge is really useful for the students who have the resources. So usually, you know, if we're really talking about the students who didn't have the resources and, you know, don't have that background knowledge, they're even further behind. So, you do have two different groups of students you're thinking about too.
Jessica Fowler: I also, it's interesting you said that about the middle school and high school. I can see how that can be more difficult. We've actually had much better support and access in middle school. It's actually been much better. So, if that gives you any hope, it can, yeah, it can be done,
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: you know, I always say, you know, districts, districts all have their own personalities. So, you can't, you know, I appreciate it. I've seen some advocates that go out and they just do the same thing at every single meeting and then they ask for the same thing. They say the same thing. I'm like, you can't do that because you're dealing with people and personalities, you know, and, and IEPs in really small towns are much different than they are in really big cities, because in really small towns, the parent might go to the grocery store and see those IEP people on a regular basis. And that affects the way they behave in an IEP. And they know here in San Diego, you know, yes, I see people out and about, but not as common as I would if I were from a smaller town, so it just depends on the personality of your district. You might get really lucky and you might not.
Jessica Fowler: Well, and to sort of say about this too, is that, right? You have to have a working relationship with them. And sometimes I'll say for myself, it has been very hard when you're coming from a position of you just want your child to read.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: And it can be extremely hard if not traumatic when that's not happening.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Right. Yes, it's heartbreaking.
Jessica Fowler: It's very heartbreaking.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes, for sure.
Jessica Fowler: And so it can, you know, having these resources, I think is important. So you can go in feeling confident.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: Because it's so hard when people are coming at you when you don't understand the language. The structure, how it's supposed to be, um, can be really hard. And..
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: I think it's helpful if you come in exactly like you said, if the team hears all the language that you're using and they're, and they're put, you know, they're put on notice that you know what you're doing and you, you know, what your rights are and you've done your research. I think that changes the whole tone of the meeting. And I think that's really helpful.
Jessica Fowler: What would you say are, cause you talk about this in the book some too, The impact, the mental health impact on kids who have dyslexia.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: So, this varies from child to child, so I'm not going to make any kind of blanket statement. But I will say that, um, when, when we kind of, um, repeat this rhetoric that we're not going to identify anyone until third grade. I'm Or they, um, they'll just outgrow it or boys will be boys, or they haven't found a book they like yet. All the things I've heard over the years. Um, you're really putting all of the onus back on the person. So, you're kind of blaming the student for not learning to read yet. So, I will say a couple of things about this. Um, I've never met anyone who was trying not to read. Nobody is trying to be dyslexic. No one enjoys it. It's not a gift. Um, it's very difficult for them. If you have a third grader who has been struggling since kindergarten, that's four years that they've been struggling. They know that they're not reading as well as their peers. They know it. I don't care how old they are. They know it. So, you know, they're internalizing all of this as their fault and their intellectual ability and their capability. And then you're heading into like middle school where we really have to start thinking about um, anxiety and depression and, um, anger issues. So, I did one, I was an expert witness for one case in particular where the student was, um, only having outbursts during reading and, you know, the teacher would make him come up from right on the board. He was almost completely illiterate, and that is very uncommon. But the teachers would still make him do things in front of his peers. And then he would have outbursts, like a lot of very angry, inappropriate outbursts. But still, if you went back and looked through all of the notes, you could see when it was happening. And it was only happening during these times. So, I'm like, it's, it's easy to kind of see what's triggering it if it's dyslexia that's triggering it so, you know, they they carry a lot of shame with them when you talk to adults, they have a lot of shame. They spend a lot of time hiding it These are these are especially the students that don't have the resources, you know they don't have the attorneys the advocates the parents who can come to all the meetings for whatever reason no parent blame or anything here just maybe they're very busy. Lots of other children, things like that happen. Um, so we just have to really watch out that we're not, that we're, somebody's talking to them about it, telling them what dyslexia is, telling them what's okay, asking them what their experience is like, asking them how they're feeling, asking them how what's working, what's not working, but really letting them express what's going on and that acknowledging their effort and acknowledging their intelligence will go a long way.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. And it's true. Kids at a very kindergarten, they know who's reading at what level that they're not reading enough. And so, when people say, right, well, they're just lazy, or you're not trying hard enough, or you didn't do this, right. And so that over time can, not saying it will, can impact somebody.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: And so. Right. Like you talk about this as putting the onus on the child when it shouldn't be like, right. We need to learn ways to teach kids to read.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: That are effective and kids with dyslexia need more.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Well, they mean they need, they need something that's appropriate.
Jessica Fowler: Yes. Well, all kids need explicit instruction to read. And so with dyslexia, they need something that will work for them. And so that's what I mean. It's just they need more. They need specific instruction, but all kids need specific instruction when it comes to reading to so.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: yes.
Jessica Fowler: Anything else are your readers should know about the book.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Um, I would just say, you know, take you don't have to read it from cover to cover. Um, if you're in a certain specific part of the process, you can skip to that. Um, however, I don't, I mean, it might take that back even because I did write it in a structured way. Um, no, I would just say, use it as a resource. Um, you read it before you go to an IEP meeting it's written, you know, I, I try to read it and I tried to write it in a conversational tone, so it's not. You know, difficult to read. It's not wordy or, you know, I don't try to throw in big words just to try to sound smarter or anything like that. It's just, um, you know, and bring it with you to a meeting and put it on the table. You know, there's little things you could do at IEP meetings like that, but, um, you know, and then, and there's lots of resources out there too, that you can, you can go to afterwards.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I agree. I, I would say read it cover to cover because even if it's right, I'm several, several years into this process and going and reading it was like, okay, this, there are some things that, you know, I should go back and look at and, you know, even one of them, I meant to do this before we got on was one was the observation done. Oh, yeah, yeah. Was it done during reading? Or was it not done during reading?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes. I love that part.
Jessica Fowler: Yes. Like, that's a great question, because now we're several years out. I don't know when that was, but I'm going to go check, because that's a really important thing. Because I hear stories all the time about, you know, kids who are shut down, or they go under their desk, or they, you know, got to go to the nurse, or they got, you know, because they want to try to get out of it, because it's too hard, right? But if you're doing it during, you know, P. E.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yeah, right. Or you're not, or you're not really paying attention to what they're reading and writing. You're just paying attention to the behavior. So, you know, if you don't go and look at what they produce during the observation, then you're missing the whole point.
Jessica Fowler: So ,I thought that was a great one. And another one, too, was that it doesn't have to just be two or three goals. That over a need, I've heard that.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Yes. Well, I do want to add a caveat to that because, um, sometimes, you know, I don't, I, I, my, my purpose is not to go in and overwhelm the teacher, you know, and I know, I know I've done that. Um, but it's not my purpose, my, but I'm advocating for the students and my focus is only on my student, but, um, The thing is, if there's 10 goals, five of them might be reading related. So those five goals, if the, if the intervention is appropriate, all of those goals will be attended to simultaneously. We're just assessing them separately with separate goals. So, you know, when, if someone pushes back and says, I can't have 10 goals, I don't have time for that. Um, and, you know, in a public school system, they really might not have time to, to, you know, have 10 different goals in a session. But like I said, if it's the appropriate program, then it's not the way it's structured. It should all be taken care of at the same time, just assessed separately.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. So who should read this book?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Oh, parents, teachers, attorneys, advocates, um, anyone who has a student with dyslexia should read this book or suspected dyslexia or anybody who is struggling with reading, um, should read this book. And you know what, if you're an adult with dyslexia and you have a small child who hasn't entered the school system yet, that might be a good, you know, place to start just to make sure that you, if you see any red flags that you can start from the beginning.
Jessica Fowler: Cause it's likely that it could happen. It could definitely happen. Yeah. And really any teacher, because this is pretty common. So they, lots of people have dyslexia and so they are in the schools right now. They're in people's classrooms.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: I always say if you've ever stepped foot in a student in a classroom at a school that you've taught someone who has dyslexia.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: From day one.
Jessica Fowler: Because it's, it's common. Yes. I think we need to stop thinking it's not common.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Right. Yeah. Well, yes. We need to build. I mean, the awareness needs to continue. I always think that we've come a long way and then I wake up to an email that puts me back into perspective and says, nope, we haven't come a long way yet.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Where can, where can our listeners connect with you?
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Um, the easiest way would be to go to our website. So just dyslexiatraininginstitute. org. You can go there and, um, all of our information is there and then there's also a contact link if you want to contact me.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
Dr. Kelli Sandman-Hurley: Sure. Thank you for having me.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only.
And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.