Episode 63: Tara Sanderson, PsyD., MBA
Dr. Tara Sanderson: I, you know, I think about reading as, as such an incredible opportunity for us to be in our own minds and experiencing and exploring something different than what we are, and then being able to tie it to ourselves. And I think that's, that's the like, big impact that reading has is this moment to step out but then integrate new knowledge.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to what your therapist is reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. Today, we are speaking with Dr. Tara Sanderson about her book, Too Much, Not Enough: A Guide to Decreasing Anxiety and Finding Balance Through Intentional Choices. Tara Sanderson is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and clinical supervisor in Oregon. For over 20 years, Tara has been helping people learn the skills to live their best lives. Using tools from cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing, mindfulness, and dialectical behavioral therapy, she specializes in working with clients who struggle with perfectionism, overachieving, anxiety, and depression. After today's episode, make sure you head on over to @therapybookspodcast on social media to learn about the latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome Tara.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Hey.
Jessica Fowler: So, I'm excited to talk to you about your book, but as we've talked and listeners know, I love to start with this question, can you share a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Absolutely. I, I have very fond memories of being a child and reading a lot in my room, and I actually just went home recently to my home in California and, uh, picked up some of my old books from childhood. It was so enjoyable to pick up these just little books. I don't know if you remember the Serendipity Series, but they were all about these little animals and they had these like little morals to the story and they like the drawings were so perfect in the like 70s, 80s style. Um, but when I picked them up, they all have so many like creases and like little, like you can tell my hot little hands were on them. And like the second I started reading them again, now as a grown person, I felt this moment of sitting down in my beanbag chair in my room and just like, devouring these pages and this love for reading just like re cropped up inside of me as I was reading these little tiny children's books from when I was a child. I even found my Little Miss Chatterbox book, um, which made me smile so big as I read it. So, I, you know, I think about reading as as such an incredible opportunity for us to be in our own minds and experiencing and exploring something different than what we are and then being able to tie it to ourselves. And I think that's, that's the like big impact that reading has is this moment to step out, but then integrate new knowledge.
Jessica Fowler: I love that story because that's so true. There's some, everyone always brings up, you know, something that it's done for them, how it's helped them or, you know, tied into themselves or saw something that was the possibility. And I love hearing that because there's so many things that reading can do for us. And it's just like such a good reminder to kind of tap into that younger you that loved that series. And I could see it on your face. Like you just lit up.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: It's so adorable. It’s so adorable.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. I love it. So that's my question about that. Which the follow up is always, what is your hope that your book, the impact it will have on its readers?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: You know, I, I wanted people to hear another experience, right. So, my experience with anxiety, perfectionism, my experience with, um, being a straight A overachiever, um, and then being able to have some freedom. Um, when I think about the word freedom and, and what I got from my experience, not only writing that book, but from my experiences over the last few years, it really is like perfectionism we think that that's supposed to get us to freedom. If everything is just right, if I have the right thing in the right place and I always put it back and I have the right routine, that somehow that will be freedom. But gosh, it sure starts feeling like you are just getting chained down to these old things and there is no freedom from that. And so being able to share that, what I wanted other people to read was to figure out that there's a way to get out of that rut and out of that frustration and find some freedom.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. I love that how you just said that freedom that it isn't because it can be so confiding like you try so hard for it to be a certain way thinking it's going to lead to like making life easier or less anxiety or less stressful and really it's just creating that cycle and it just gets harder and harder in many ways.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah. Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: So this title, Too Much, Not Enough, can you share a little bit about that?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah, so when I, when I finished the book and I had done all of my reviews, I sat down with a couple of beta readers and, um, said, like, okay, I've got, I've got a title that I want for this book, but I kind of want to hear, like, what your overarching themes were or what you kind of took away from it. Um, and each of my beta readers submitted kind of what they, what they thought those were and I took those to try and create my title. I really wanted my title to be something like, um, I need a syllabus for this part of my life because after you get done with this many years of school. My goodness, like, I was trained to follow a syllabus, but when I, when I, when I sat with that title, and then I sat with the themes that they came out of, or that came out of my beta readers, um, I realized that when I put that title together, I was still looking for something to give me all the right answers so I could do it right and do it perfect, and I had to really let go of this piece of, like, oh, I'm still looking for that even now as I'm writing this book on freedom and like opportunity and intentionality, like I'm still looking for perfection and one of my readers wrote specifically, it feels like you are always in a situation where everything you're doing is too much and you're too much and all of a sudden, none of that is enough. And I was like, oh girl, that is it. That's the title. It is. It is. Everything that we try so hard to be, to do, and bring to the table and all the pieces and yet none of it is ever going to be enough because it can't be because that's not how the world works. That's not how we function well in the world and that's definitely not how freedom works. Um, so I, I took that, I took her words from that and really did some of my own soul searching of, of letting go of my need for it to be perfect and need to follow the syllabus and still get my gold star in A+.
Jessica Fowler: Well, and you have a chapter that's called that, follow the syllabus. And I was just saying to you earlier, you know, today I didn't have a lot of structure to my day and I was left doing all these other things and the things I should be doing. So, I can identify with that a little bit. But it is that idea. I think this book is, that's what it's about. This idea of like thinking it's supposed to be a certain way or you're supposed to do the things that you're supposed to do and sort of your process of learning how to let go of some of that and be okay.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's so vital that we go through, I think, I think in the book that the thing that I wish I could have hit on more and maybe in a, in a redo of it, you know, at some point, um, I, I think I would have wished I could have, uh, could have put more information in there about like the grieving process of letting go of that, that intense need for things to be perfect and let it, and, and grieve Into a way that acceptance is much more, uh, like, accessible, right, in, in where we're out right now, in that stage of the book when I wrote it, um, I, I was so impassioned by like, oh my gosh, this is so great, it's so much fun. And there is a part of this whole process that I did have to grieve like, okay, nobody's going to give me an A plus anymore. Like that. And I'm not going to give me an A plus anymore. No more A pluses are coming. Um, where I did have to grieve some of that. That was, I think, really important work for everybody who struggles with perfectionism.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, definitely. I totally agree with that. I see that all the time. When you work so hard for that and then realize, yeah, no one's going to be patting you on the back or saying good job all the time, yeah, it is hard.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: For sure. For sure.
Jessica Fowler: And so in the book, the first two chapters, I kind of wanted to talk about both of those because you sort of interweave them through the rest of the book as you kind of break down different topics. Can you share maybe about the first one?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah, this concept really came out of a lot of my own personal therapy, and then my therapy with a lot of my clients, where, where I really started to notice this trend of, as a person, sometimes we decide something is big T truth, like there is nothing that can make this wrong, like it is absolute. Um, and then, yeah, when, when that thing might be a little t truth. So for instance, like if you are, if you are somebody who walks around in the world in a bigger body, you have this idea of how much space you take up in a, in a room, whether that's on a couch or in on a bus or anywhere in that space, you feel like, okay, I know how big my hips are. I know how much space I take up in this room. And you're very conscious of that. And you may walk into a space feeling like. I know I'm going to be the biggest person in the room. I know that I'm going to need to sit along the backside so that nobody, so that I'm not bothering anybody. You've created all of these stories and all of these ways that you interact with the world because you have decided how you fit in that space. And that's a hundred percent yours, not absolute truths. I mean, there is an absolute truth of like we could measure how big your hips are, but the but the actual truth is if I sit in the front row of a presentation and my hips are this wide, that actually doesn't mean I am in anybody's way. But you have decided it means you're in everybody's way, so you sit to the outside. You've created this, what you're calling a big T truth, when it's really a little t truth. You're, you have decided you're in everybody's way, not, and not it being really true. And when we start differentiating about what is actual truth, big T, indisputable, that's hip size, right, versus the value of, or the story we're telling around that piece of truth. That's where, that's where things get messy, right? I have now put value on my hip size about how it impacts a whole room full of people that it may or may not impact in that way. Right? And, and that component of really separating those two pieces is really, really valuable. So, in my therapy with the, with other people, I spend a lot of time trying to help them understand when they tell me the story, well, I can't do that, or that's not possible, or this isn't the way that it's meant to be. I, I have to ask, well, is that a big T truth or a little T truth? Is that something you've decided, or is that something that's actually universal? Because the actual hip size on your body, that's, that's a literal measurement. It's impact on other things. That's a little T stuff. That's stuff that you still need to investigate, you need to decide, you need to move forward. That, the big, great example with hip size is like going on amusement park rides. There is literal space and sometimes they do have to measure and be like, well, the seat only does it in this way. Disneyland has a bunch of attraction kind of pieces where you can go and see if you fit in the attraction because legitimately they built it for specific sizes of things and you do. And that's a, that's a measurement that is a big T. You have to be able to sit in here and have this closed in order for you to move on. But that's not a value-based thing. And that's not an impact on anybody else thing. It's just size. It's just a thing. And I think that when we think about Big T and Little T truth in our daily lives, like that is a component that drives us either into despair sometimes or frustration or anxiety when we're putting a Big T on an actual Little T truth.
Jessica Fowler: I totally agree. I, the way I describe it to my clients is what's that story you're telling yourself? Like we tell ourselves a story all the time about something that may or may not have happened, or our belief about something, and it's the story, and then it brings up all these feelings. Usually, quote unquote, negative feelings, right, and then we feel bad about ourselves, and none of it is actually true, it's just a story we've told ourselves, or sometimes maybe somebody unhealthy told us and we started to take on.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yes. Right. For sure. For sure. And that's a great follow up question to the big T, little t truth is, and where did you get it? Is it something that your parents told you? Is it something that a teacher told you a long ago? Some random friend on the playground told you this thing and you have carried it. And let's ask the question, was that a reliable source or was that just something somebody said in that moment, right? Like where, yeah, where are you getting that story? Why are we still giving that thing such big T credence? When it might not be.
Jessica Fowler: absolutely. And what's a reliable source? I would challenge that one, right?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Absolutely. Just because they're your mom does not mean it's a reliable source. Just because they were a teacher and authority does not mean they were a reliable source. It may have meant a lot of things in that moment. And gosh, even, even unraveling some of the, the cultural disruptions that we need to, the patriarchal disruptions that we need to, um, in order to really understand, like, that person was telling you something to keep you in line in a classroom, right? Like, because their goal was to make their day as easy as possible as a teacher. That had nothing to do with you and your actual life, but now that we understand the context in which they gave you that information, now you can decide what to do with it because you're old enough now to make those connections.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. There's a lot of unlearning to do in that process too.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah, for sure.
Jessica Fowler: You bring this up in other chapters too, right? And so, give some examples along the way. And then you have this other skill that you teach the readers. Can you share about that skill as well?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: My sober skill. So this is, I think I mentioned it in the book, but it's a standard, Sandersonized sober skill, um, because it does come from mindfulness. It's a technique that's been around for a really long time, but this skill I think is so fantastic in helping people really uh, slow down and become intentional about the choices that they're gonna make. I think as an anxious person and as a perfectionist, I can get caught up in a lot of the, um, analysis paralysis of like too many options, too many things. I've got to find just the right one. Um, instead of recognizing that there's a lot of good options that are probably enough, right? So, the sober skill, slowing down part of the sober skills, because I think a lot of times with. With us anxious folks or, or perfectionistic folks, there's a sense of urgency into a lot of our decision making that we feel like we have to not only make the right decision, we have to make it fast, or we should have already known it. That's one that I get caught up in a lot. Um, and so the sober skill helps us slow down. The first step of the sober skill is to stop, to stop what's going on and literally take a moment before we make a decision. Um, and then the second part of the sober skill is to observe what's happening both inside and outside of ourselves. Because if we can take a moment to give ourselves some context of why am I feeling this intense pressure? Or is someone making me have this intense pressure? Or somebody saying, you have five seconds to make this answer. This is, this is really important information that I need to gather in this moment, right? Um, or is this intense pressure become because of a story I'm telling myself or because of a thought that I'm, I'm bringing to the scenario that I have to make this right now or whatever it is, even if it's not time pressure, it might be perfect pressure, right? Or it might be some kind of pressure and giving ourselves a moment to analyze that I think is really important for us to make an intentional decision that we won't be ruminating on for the next decade. Right. The third step in the process, the B is for breathe. Um, I mostly tell people to do this breathing action as an opportunity to give space between the analysis you just did and the analysis you're going to do. It's not so much about doing like this big breathing movement that'll help you get fully grounded back into yourself. Although sometimes that can work and it will be really helpful. Most of the time, it's just a space to be like, okay, I just need to, I need to. Before I move on, I need to, like, make sure I've gotten myself back together to move on to the next step. So, I have people do, uh, five deep breaths, or five types of breathing action. And the reason that the five is important is because we do five in the next step. So, we're gonna, E is for examine the options. And I want you to come up with five options. I always have people come up with one extreme option on either end of the solution, and then three middle ground ones. I mean, the two extreme ones just give us some, some parameters, um, that anything else is possible in there. I think, especially as a perfectionistic person, I tend to think there must be one right answer, and I don't give myself room to think outside of the box, um, when I'm, when I'm focusing in on, oh my gosh, I've got to do this thing, and it's got to be done this way, um, that if I can give myself to extremes of things that are possible but not necessarily probable. I'm not probably going to pick them. Then it gives me room in the middle to go, okay, well then what else could be in here besides the one answer I think is the right one for right now. Um, and so giving those extremes is really helpful. And then the three middle ground is pretty much what you're, what you're probably going to choose from. And, um, and then your next step is the R. So, the R is for respond. And for me, responding comes with a weighing test. If I can choose one of these options, being fully present, doing it on purpose, and being, um, uh, being intentional, being, being fully in it, then, then that's probably a good enough option for me to move through and, and go ahead and make that choice. Um, And then I can do it and just go for it. But if any of those are a no, like, I can't do this fully present, I can't do this on purpose, and I can't do this being fully committed, then, then I, then I want to go back to the, the options again and look for some other options in there. Um, so, when I, when I teach people this skill, I like to do it at a really micro level. Like when you leave my therapy office, let's talk about you putting on your seatbelt in the car because you have options. You don't actually have to put on your seatbelt. I mean, yes, it's the law, technically, but people drive without their seatbelts every day. Like that happens. Like this is, it is a law and, right? Like you could choose not to. You could choose to put it on the second you get in the car, even if it's uncomfortable because you didn't take off your purse first. Like. Those are options, right? Or you could wait till the end of the driveway. You could wait till the next stop sign. You could wait till whenever. Like, you have lots of options in when you do that. Um, and when people start to think about everything they're doing has multiple ways that it could be done. I mean, that's to me where, where when I talked about freedom in the beginning, that's where freedom comes in. Not only do I have multiple options that are all okay. Like, none of them are the right and none of them are the perfectly wrong answer, they're just all okay. And I get to choose what that looks like in the way that, like, really fits me and my values and my, and what I want to bring to the world. That, that's where freedom lives. And I think that because we're limiting it to those five options, we're really kind of only limiting it to the three you know, doable ones. It releases some of that decision fatigue. It releases some of that, like, too many options, analysis paralysis stuff. You're really just kind of going, okay, any of these would be okay. Which do I, which do I want to do? How can I, how can I do that fully present and on purpose?
Jessica Fowler: I liked it because it does, I think we often can go through life and just not even think about what we're doing. Right? The seatbelt example is a great one. You don't think about it. You just put it on. We are not advocating to not wear your seatbelt. That's not. It's wear your seatbelt. But that idea, right? That there's many steps in the things that we do that we often don't even think about, and so just slowing down and noticing that process and then making some decisions along the way, depending what's going on. And so that's what you do in the book. You kind of give these examples with both of these that you use in, you know, a variety of different topics that you talk about in the book. You have like one on public speaking, um, imposter syndrome, like a whole bunch of different topics that relate to this idea of perfectionism and anxiety and how to handle it.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah. Yeah, and I hope that it comes through in the book that, like, my journey through those pieces was really giant experiments, and as much as I didn't really, like, think of it at the time as, oh, I'm going to experiment with my life right now, these were things that just had to happen so that we could, so that I could continue to grow, and the relief that I got from having to do things perfectly, I think is, is what I wish for everyone.
Jessica Fowler: One of the examples I liked was how I think you had said in class you were afraid to talk because you didn't want to say the wrong thing, but it was hurting your grade because you weren't getting participation. And so your professor gave you two pennies for your two cents as your physical reminder that you need to talk and what you have to say has value. Your opinion matters.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Yeah, absolutely. There's an, there's a book that I got introduced to a few years ago. Um, I think it's called Growing Up Again. Um, and, uh, in that book, she talks a lot about like, as a parent, how you are trying to parent your kids to that ends up trying to heal yourself in, in some of those aspects. Um, and I, one of the lessons in that book is, is all about like, your voice matters. Um, and as I was going through that book and getting ready to write my book, that was a big fear that I had of putting this book out there. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm putting out like my literal stories into the world. Um, experiences that I've had, you know, things that were, that are really, you know, intimate to me. And I am trusting that someone out there, like, Also needed to hear these things and, and could take this and grow from it in a new way. And, and honestly, that's a big reason why I wrote the book was because I do feel like that is the easiest way for me to, to make sure that my voice is being heard somewhere. Um, and that, and that I can reiterate to my youngest self, who was really scared of being imperfect, but like, hey, your voice matters, you know, errors and all, I know there are typos in that book. There are things in that book that I would look at now and be like. Well, I wish I had written that differently. And like, that's part of being human is we make all these lovely and wonderful mistakes and, and, and we're still okay. And everything's going to be fine.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. I truly believe that, you know, each book that comes on the podcast, maybe it's not for everybody, but there's somebody out there that it's for, and it's vulnerable. It's vulnerable doing the podcast. It's vulnerable being an author. I think it's particularly vulnerable being a therapist and being an author. And when you share your story in that way, um, it's, you know, I've had a lot of people on here who've done that, who've shared about their personal stuff, and it's, you know, it's a different dynamic than somebody who just writes for a living.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And especially in an industry where, like, self-disclosure is not It's not really our best plan all the time, I think there are places and spaces in which it is fine, and I really did have to write this book with the idea of I'm not sharing all of the details of my life because I do know I will have clients who read this book, and in fact, you know, I, I got several clients from this book where I I published it and then people in my area read it kind of on a whim and didn't know who I was and then we're like, oh my gosh, she's local. I can go talk to her. She's somebody I want to do therapy with because she gets me, which was great. I mean, talk about some of the best, you know, return on investment for writing a book. I did great. Um, but you know, it was very interesting when they would come in and say things like, like, well, in your book, you said this about your, your family life. Can you tell me more about that? No, I sure cannot. But we can talk about your family life and how you feel like this related.
Jessica Fowler: What was it that you read that brought up, what did it bring up for you? Absolutely. So, who would you say your book is for?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: I would say it's for people who, um, have, have, a constant worry that they are not doing the right thing, um, that people who have thought to themselves, like, I just don't know if I'm doing the right thing. I feel like I'm always guessing. I wish somebody would just tell me what the right thing is. If those questions or thoughts ever come to your mind, like this, I think this book is great for giving you some really clear strategies, uh, of things that you could do. And then some, some stories of practical application that, that could help reinforce that for you. Um, yeah, I think that's what I would say.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. This is a fun conversation. Where is the best place for our listeners to connect with you?
Dr. Tara Sanderson: You can find me at drtarasanderson.com and it's just drtarasanderson.com.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Thank you so much.
Dr. Tara Sanderson: Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Tara Sanderson is a Licensed Psychologist, Author, and Clinical Supervisor in Oregon. For over 20 years Tara has been helping people learn the skills to live their best lives. Using tools from Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, Motivational Interviewing, Mindfulness, and Dialectical Behavior Therapy, she specializes in working with clients who struggle with Perfectionism, Overachieving, Anxiety, and Depression.