Episode 44: Jennifer Kos, PsyD.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Ideally would be normal. What if you could say to me, this thing experience relationship is X, Y, and Z. and I could go, okay, then it's normal. What would those variables be?
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to What Your Therapist is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we are speaking with Dr. Jennifer Koss, who is the author of The Normalcy Fallacy. The Normalcy Fallacy is accumulation of observed stories, collected resources from other professionals, and challenge questions that she designed to lead us away from pathologizing our human experience and embracing the ideal world where normal is simply that which is healthy, safe, and loving.
Jennifer's educational and clinical background includes undergraduate work in psychology and education, graduate work in counseling, and a doctorate in clinical psychology. She has multiple clinical licenses in two states, however, continues to see the value in moving beyond the confines of pathology and diagnosis to the deeper work of self-awareness, self-healing and deep respect for intuition and self-actualization.
After today's episode, head on over to social media @therapybookspodcasts to learn about the latest giveaway. If you are enjoying these episodes and would like to support the podcast, please leave us a review. And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back, listeners. Today, we are speaking with Dr. Jennifer Kos about her book, The Normalcy Fallacy: Stories, Resources, and Workbook. Welcome.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Thank you.
Jessica Fowler: So, I wanted to kind of just jump right in and talk about reading in general. And I was wondering just because you've, you know, have been a reader and now an author and usually authors start with reading. And so, if you wanted to share about a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Um, I think that there's a two-pronged response to that, um, reading has impacted me in, in, in ways that I really will have to maybe even bring up with my own therapist because it's, it's so deeply profound to me. As a child, I don't remember not reading. I remember reading the same books over and over and over again. There was such a soothing element to it and identifying with the characters in the spaces. There are a couple of books that I always try to reread as I go through developmental stages in my 20s, 30s, 40s, and now 50s. Even though they're, you know, in quotes a children's book, when I read them now as an adult or now becoming an older adult, I'm I'm always amazed at how much of my personality, how much of my awareness of the world, how much of my personal perceptions are from characters and situations and books. A part of me is like that's embarrassing. I thought it was a unique real person. And here I'm just sort of, you know, identified so heavily. I noticed that all of the books that I read as children, as a child. Had a death and grief in in the theme, and that was incredibly important for me because I went through a lot of grief and a lot of death in my childhood, and I think that's why they became so grounding for me. Um, to the main books in my childhood were Ring of Endless Light and The Little Prince, and they both have that theme and, uh, very impactful.
Jessica Fowler: That is that's I love that you just talked about how you go back to them at different stages in your life that they've been that had that much of an impact on you that you continue to go back to that like what a gift that is from a book, I guess, that it can continue to give to you in that way. I love that.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Absolutely. And that as a child, and even now as an adult, it was also my armor. Um, you can hide in a book. You can literally put it in front of you. I know digital reading is fantastic. Audiobooks are fantastic. Um, but I, I don't respond well to digital reading and I get distracted from audiobooks. So, I'm literally surrounded by piles and piles of books in my home at my office. And there's such a security and comfort there too I remember as a adolescent being able to like hide myself behind my books or if I was in public. I would just be in a book, and then it's sort of like nobody will bother you.
There was an actual kind of shielding effect too for someone with social anxiety, you know, looking back and recognizing that and just escapism. It was just, I, I don't know that there was anything more important in my childhood or in my life really.
Jessica Fowler: Wow. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I get the whole being surrounded by books as part of the reason why I do this podcast. I think we have as therapists, we tend to have a reputation of buying a lot of books. So, this is my here. You can listen to about what the book is about before you purchase the book. Um, cause we tend to, I have books. Everywhere. I piles everywhere. So, I get that. Thank you.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: And most of them are unread and I figured out a trick for myself because you get into that guilt of like, oh, I buy these books and then I don't read them all right or they're unfinished or I read halfway and couldn't quite complete it. And, uh, uh, recently I thought even if I read one page of a book and read one thing, it was worth it. And then all all the fretting evaporated. So, there you go.
Jessica Fowler: I love that. So, let's kind of dive into your book. And let's just talk about this idea where this came from, you know, the idea of normalcy and sharing that with people.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Regardless of demographic population acuity, symptom diagnosis, I heard over and over and over again. Is this normal? Am I normal? Is he, she, they, we normal, to the point where I thought I better come up with an answer? Like, because so many people ask this question, right? And that's really what started this. This book was honestly about 10, 15 years in the making because it took years of being asked that question and then years not having an answer and then having years of pondering what the question was or what the answer was. And if at a certain point, I thought, well, because there's no answer, you know, one quote I have is, you know, it's a setting on a dryer from a comedian from a long time ago. And, and that really got to me around the idea of what ideally would be normal. What if you could say to me, this thing experience relationship is X, Y, and Z, and I could go, okay, then it's normal. What would those variables be? And I thought, well, if something is healthy, loving, and safe. Is that the ideal space around normal, and then we can strip away all the judgment, all the, um, you know, calculations and all the things we think we should be or other people should be, and it becomes a very personal, safe, loving, healthy space. I would love for that to be normal. So that's sort of the challenge.
Jessica Fowler: And so, when someone reads this book, you have a chapter dedicated to each of those and then some other things within the book. Can you share about that?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yeah, I, um, it, it's really sort of a conglomeration and a little bit messy and that's where even in the introduction, I let people know you don't have to read this from cover to cover. You can pick a chapter, you can pick a theme, you can just open it and see what it says. Nothing is dependent on the other thing, um, or each chapter. Because I did go into what is love right and kind of went into some of the history of the word what is healthy. I'm not a physician or a dietitian or nutrition so from a mental health perspective what's healthy. vAnd then what's safe, right and around boundaries and how we allow ourselves to be safe in the world, and then other things that I thought were important were. Skills that I've learned over the years that I felt like, you know, I didn't want to reinvent the wheel. I just rather give credit to the originator of the, the, the process or the thought. So, I do credit the person who came up with it, or at least try to, and then send people to the resources of the person. Um, there's no reason for me to try and make something great, better. It's not going to happen. Um, and then I have little challenges in there little places of journaling where, um, there are some. Skills and tricks or hacks or whatever you want to call it that I've learned can be really effective and reframing. And I just ask people to give themselves a place to pause and do a little bit of work similar to what I would have somebody do in a session.
Jessica Fowler: Can you give an example of one of those?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: I think that the main one that I would say is that idea of stop, take a breath, clear your mind. Right. The idea of center inside of yourself and listen to your own voice. Because in those moments, it's when we go, I, you know, we're so preoccupied with what we think we should be doing and what other people tell us we should be doing. And we don't really often pause and just center within ourselves. Because that answer is usually pretty simple. When we stop, clear our mind. What do I need? It's usually a rest, some water. I need, I need some fresh air, right? It's very simple things that our mind will tell us when the outside world goes, you need a whiteboard and sticky notes and new organization. Yeah. Like it's like, no, I just, I need to sit down. I need, I need a cup of tea. I need to rest. So, stop clear your mind. You know, take a breath, clear your mind. What comes up is sort of that.
Jessica Fowler: And you have different skills in there, right? So, you, you have that, you talk about breathing in there, some grounding skills, and I like that you have, so you have stories from, I guess, clients or, and then you have some own, your own stuff. That you brought in and shared some examples. You definitely have some reframing in there. You also talk about the chakras. Can you share a little bit about that?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yes, I love that. Um, years ago when, you know, I got the opportunity to teach at a community college, and so it was always 101, maybe some low level, 200 classes. So it was, it forced me to go back to Erickson and Maslow, you know, and all of these foundational thinkers in our field. And I got to revisit it as, you know, an older therapist instead of a student. And some of them are really profoundly interesting. And when I went back to learn Maslow, I had coincidentally been looking at chakra systems, energy systems, because I did my doctoral project on meridian tapping, which there's the Western thoughts around meridian tapping and Eastern philosophy around meridian tapping. So, it forced me to learn a little bit about Chi and chakras and more of like the energy flow concepts and it just happened the universe decided I was going to be remembering Maslow to be able to teach it at a foundational level and trying to understand as a student at a foundational level, another thought process, which led me to an actual, um, a little seminar I gave on combining Maslow's hierarchy of needs with the chakra systems, and they blend so beautifully. So, it's about that idea of going from root to crown in our physicality and our energy systems, but also in our basic needs and just watching him evolve too, as a thinker was interesting inside of the chakra system. Um, so I certainly don't claim any expertise on Eastern philosophy, but it's such an interesting thought exercise.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting reading it. And I saw how you did that kind of combining the two, and it was just really interesting. And then kind of using that and then going into this idea, is it safe? Is it healthy? And
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: loving,
Jessica Fowler: loving. Right. I was like, I know, I know there's three in there I can remember off the top of my head. And so it was, it was kind of neat to read and learn about. So, I appreciated that.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, for me too.
Jessica Fowler: What are one or two takeaways you would like your readers to walk away with?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: For me, the main takeaway would be to really start to listen to themselves and to give space that even if something is not currently healthy, safe, and loving, that there isn't pressure to make some dynamic change that you're going to, you know, burn down your life and start over tomorrow because this relationship or this job or this experience isn't healthy, safe and loving right now, but to just breathe into these situations and really understand change comes moment by moment and to have compassion and grace for ourselves to even just be able to look and go, you know what? I don't feel safe in conversations with this person. What does that mean? Um, it doesn't mean that the relationship has to be discarded. Maybe it does, but at least going, I don't feel safe. Why? Right? Like really reflecting on what our needs are and are they being met? We're really conditioned to meet everybody else's needs and never really taught to even look at our own.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, you talk about that in the book, that idea of even like being selfless, selfish. We have to listen to ourselves to create those boundaries, not doing it because we're conditioned to be around that person or not say something.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: I think secondarily and in the culture now so much, you know, social media impact and being so aware of what others are saying is the right way to do things. And sometimes they're right and sometimes they're not, but it's so personal to be able to go, okay, they're saying this is normal, right? This like completely, you know, um, fantastically organized kitchen that that's normal and that's the way it should be, is it because if you have ADHD and you have, um, anxiety and you have grief and you're trying to balance your life around that, maybe you can't organize your kitchen.
Okay. Then that's normal for you. Is it healthy? Is it safe? Is it a place of love? Um, it doesn't matter if, you know, your spices are organized or you have white subway tile, which, which I like, but you know, as an example, um, that's not normal for you and that's okay.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Looking at and understanding, we kind of get inundated with all of these things that we don't actually have to, like, we don't have to live up to that.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yep, absolustely.
Jessica Fowler: One of the things I told you as we were talking before, I appreciated that you shared that you had a math disability. And I was wondering if you can maybe share how that relates to this book and what you're talking about.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: I, I had the, um, opportunity and, you know, ability to become aware of in my mid-thirties that I had a math disability. It's very specific, you know, some, some things around math and really good at others. I'm not one of the complications with my type of disability is not being able to conceptualize math. So, I could never play an instrument because I couldn't read music and I could never dance because I couldn't understand the math of the body, right? Our universe is made of math and I couldn't read it, right? I couldn't read the map of the universe. Um, and as far as even just dancing or playing an instrument. I was tested and put in a gifted program in third grade. So that was that issue around like, oh, she's smart. She gets A's. There must be nothing wrong with her. So, then I focused on things that I could do and learned how to accommodate. I also didn't get diagnosed with ADHD until I was in my mid-thirties, and that was another problem looking back around these disabilities, these complications that were overlooked because there was some um, other level of exceptionality that got focused on. So again, in that idea of normal, is it normal for someone to be able to, um, be a dancer or a cheerleader or play the trombone? Absolutely. Unless they can't. So, it's really important for us to be able to go I'm normal. Why? Because my experience, you know, to drive this home, it's healthy, safe, and loving for me and my life to not be dependent on math skills because I can't, um, for somebody to go, here's your taxes, do them. I could literally potentially end up in jail because I couldn't do that. Um, that's terrifying to live in a world where that's normal. It's normal to do your taxes. Unless you can’t. So I think from the, just the perspective of my book and disability and ableist language around certain things. Um, what's normal for you isn't for me. So probably that.
Jessica Fowler: I ask that because, you know, that was just a little bit in the book, but it was one of the takeaways for me raising kids with learning disabilities. And we were talking before just understanding as therapists the impact that that has on people, not only, you know, something like you just said with a learning disability and ADHD, that those often coincide. And so the lack of maybe knowledge of that. And the impact that that has on kids growing up in families when it comes to anxiety and depression or acting out, um, sort of being aware of that. And so maybe probably not the takeaway that most people will walk away with, but it was a really big takeaway for me and I really appreciated you being open about that.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: I appreciate that. Good. I love that. And that's a part of why I shared my own personal stories is so that people could go, you know, oh, wait, therapists are people. They have mental health concerns. They have children with mental health concerns. They're exhausted. They need help too. Just because we've memorized things in books doesn't mean that they immediately translate and integrate into our daily living skills.
You know, we, we have to work on those things too. Um, and again, the idea that it's normal, that disabilities and, you know, problems and disorders, they're normal because they happen, right? How do, how do we make the world safer and, you know, healthier and more compassionate?
Jessica Fowler: Mm hmm. Right. Because that's the end of the day.vThose are great questions to ask, right? We're being healthy and we're safe and it's loving, then it's normal.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yeah. Ideally. Right.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Ideally.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Who should read your book? Anybody who isn't expecting too much. It's, I, you know, I had a friend who's a very, very brilliant person read the book and he went, well, who is your audience? You know, I think he was expecting a high level intellectual kind of, you know, almost, you know, reference textbooks type of experience. And I went, anybody who can walk into a bookstore or get into a bookstore, not necessarily walk, but who could enter into a bookstore or get on Amazon and buy a book, I want this to be entry level accessible. Anybody who's wondering, is this normal? If you've ever asked that question about anything, I would like for a person to have a little bit of space inside of the book, and it's, I try to not be pretentious or exclusionary, but for everybody to be able to come in, like you said, take one thing away. Um, even if it's just one thing and just be able to reframe around is my life healthy, safe and normal or healthy, safe and loving, right, because that's what I want their normal to be.
Jessica Fowler: And that question comes up all the time. What is this normal or it's, you know, do other people have this experience or do they think like this? And usually, uh, always the answer is yes.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Always. Um, and especially like if, you know, uh, on those rare occasions where you can disclose a little bit about yourself and without fail, I've had patients go, oh my God, thank you. Thank you for telling me that. Like, because they see us as some kind of, you know, elevated guru, you know, with all the answers. And it's like, no, if I have an answer, it's probably because I had to figure it out. Not, not because. You know, it was bestowed upon me.
Jessica Fowler: Well, I, I liked that you talked about that in the book too, that, you have, what, three things that people come to you for? And, like, everyone else is just sort of like, trying to make it work in life that we don't, you know, cause we can't know everything and we don't, but you know, there's only certain things that we can have a handful of things that we probably feel confident in.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yeah. Oh yeah. Talking about that idea of, you know, building confidence and esteem and you know, it's really like most people don't know what they're doing. You know, the time you get to be a certain age, you might be really good at two or three things. Cause you focus for decades on them. How, how at 20 are you supposed to be all that good at something? Right? Like, that's okay. That's normal. It's normal. It's good.
Jessica Fowler: How at 18 or 17 are we supposed to pick what we're going to do for the next several decades of your life?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: I know. Yeah, absolutely. Right?
Jessica Fowler: Like I get it now that I'm older, why people change careers and like, you know, you can understand that or want something different or make a change in their life.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yeah, for sure.
Jessica Fowler: Set ourselves up at 1718 to do something that we don't even have the experience on. Maybe don't stick it. That's hard.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Very. Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: Well, I appreciate you coming on today. Thank you so much. Where can our listeners connect with you?
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: There? I have a website, jenniferkos.com. Um, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook and um, LinkedIn for my professional page, but the easiest way is jenniferkost.com. There are some, my socials are on there and then a direct way to contact me.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful.
Jennifer Kos, PsyD: Yep. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only.
And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
After more than 30 years in the mental health field as a student, counselor, psychologist, educator and consultant I have come to the point in the journey that I realize we are all searching; searching for answers, comfort and a sense of belonging. My written work, The Normalcy Fallacy, is the culmination of observed (fictionalized to preserve confidentiality) stories, collected resources from other professionals and challenge questions that I designed to lead us away from pathologizing our human experience and embracing the ideal world where "normal" is simply that which is healthy, safe and loving. As I ultimately move away from the clinical work of diagnosis and treatment, I look to embrace the paradigm shift of seeing us all as in need of acceptance, love and healing however and wherever that finds us. My educational and clinical background includes undergraduate work in psychology and education, graduate work in counseling and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I have multiple clinical licenses in two states, however, continue to see the value in moving beyond the confines of pathology and diagnosis to the deeper work of self-awareness, self-healing and deep respect for intuition and self-actualization.