Episode 34: Michelle Moore, PhD.
Michelle Moore, PhD: You don't know what to share, how much to share and what's going to help or what's going to be too much information and how people are going to react. And then when things shift, you don't really know what to expect. You know, you don't know, you don't know that you're going to be okay, probably better than that on the other end. It doesn't feel like that at that point.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome to What Your Therapist Is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we are speaking with Dr. Michelle Moore about her book, Not Your Mom's Divorce: The Savvy Woman's Guide. Michelle Moore is a licensed clinical psychologist with a private practice in California.
Michelle has spent more than 20 years researching and presenting on topics such as self-esteem, shame, resilience, and conflict resolution. She has been on panels presenting to faculty and students at UCLA and UCI. Michelle is newly married, living in San Diego, California, spending her time experiencing life with her new blended family of five.
She writes professionally and for pleasure, sharing her story with the hope that her experiences will help others find support and humor on their journey through divorce into singlehood. And if you're enjoying the podcast, we would love your support by leaving us a review. And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back listeners. Today we are speaking with Dr. Michelle Moore about her book, Not Your Mom's Divorce: The Savvy Woman's Guide. Welcome, Michelle.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Thank you for having me.
Jessica Fowler: Well, thanks for being here. I wanted to jump right in and I actually am trying something new and was wondering if we could start with a memory about reading something that stands out to you about reading.
Michelle Moore, PhD: I think for me, I mean, reading started very early in life. You know, I later in life, I found out I had a sister, but early in life, you know, I was an only child, right? Lots of family stuff in there, but I also would read a lot because. My stepdad was in the military, so we would move around a lot. So it was like a really good friend, right? We would move to new cities and you know, I would read and when my parents would argue, I would read and it was like a whole other world for me to be in and an escape, I guess, but something really, really comfortable and, um, safe, comforting. It was a different kind of world. Different from the present world, bad or good, it just allowed me to connect with other people.
Jessica Fowler: Thanks for sharing that, because that is really special, that idea that a book can do that, right? That's the power of reading, and to think that you read all that, and now here you are an author.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing, actually. One thing I never really thought I would be, to be quite honest.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, really?
Michelle Moore, PhD: No, never thought. It just always seemed like so much work. And no, I never really thought about it.
Jessica Fowler: Well, let's start there. So, then I'm curious, what made you decide to write this book?
Michelle Moore, PhD: The idea behind this book actually was twofold. A really good friend of mine, who actually was the one who wrote the forward in the book, and I think I referenced her quite often in the book as well, and I connected, she had met with me, um, we had known each other over the years and then we kind of went our separate ways a little bit due to work and life circumstances and then we reconnected and I remember meeting her again.
You know, one day with her and having coffee and her telling me that she had been, or she had just gotten divorced. And it was so shocking to me because she was young and I, it was something I hadn't even thought of. And at that point, my husband and I were having problems and I guess I looked at it and went, wow, that's something you can do. And, and it's, it can be normal and healthy because the way she handled it was, she did it all on her own. She tried to keep it simple. Um, and it was in her mind, probably the one, one of the best choices she'd ever made. And that for me was just a, a gentle opening into like options for my life, but I started looking around and I tried to find stuff to read to give me help or advice when I kind of started the process and there, there wasn't anything. And that was one thing that she and I talked about so we would kind of brainstorm and I remember presenting it to her saying, because I would write just about my experiences most of them were so funny and bizarre like the things that you fumble about right, right. Figure out how to get a Christmas tree or, you know, filing paperwork in the midst of all this stuff happening in your life and not knowing the next step. And I would look for guidance and everything was so depressing or heavy or just looming or really boring written by maybe, you know, a CPA or an attorney or something. And it was like, oh, it can't be like this. So, I started kind of writing and kind of recording my own process. And then and then in the midst of it, she and I talked about like, maybe we should actually look at publishing something. And she had to kind of pull out of that, but I just kept going because I just felt like I don't want people to have to find their own stuff like I did kind of fumble about. And if there was some insight and help, I could offer up, you know, that would be really great. Like I remember one of my girlfriends when I found out, you know, in Carlsbad, people don't get divorced. At least I didn't think so. And it was one other single mom and she had said, you know, well, what about divorce insurance? And I remember going, I didn't even know that was a thing.
Jessica Fowler: I didn't know that was a thing until I read that in your book.
Michelle Moore, PhD: No, people don't know it. It's actually something that you can sign up for as a part of your benefit package. Go figure like life insurance. So those are things that I never knew and would have been so helpful to kind of know that kind of stuff beforehand, how to prepare just to make it easier and less stressful because it's already stressful.
Jessica Fowler: So, you wrote this book to just give another option, something that's a little more light, like you call it the savvy guide. It is, I, I said to you before we started recording that it's like it appropriately used humor. Um, and it felt like a light read on a heavy topic is how I would describe it.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the part that is, is kind of real is the fact that that was the process for me. It wasn't like I was trying to make light of something that was extremely difficult. Um, I'm not saying it was easy. I mean, I think even the easiest divorce has its trials and tribulations, but for the most part, you know, I didn't have days where I was regretting things, or I didn't have days where I couldn't get out of bed, and it was just too much to think about. It wasn't like that. And don't get me wrong I had to do all of it on my own. So it was, there was a lot of work that was really no different from when he, anything else I had ever experienced, especially in my marriage, that was a lot of work. So, it wasn't like that was new, but as far as like the daunting doom and gloom. That wasn't my experience.
Jessica Fowler: And you talk about that a little in the book, and I think we were kind of talking about what was in the book. So, let's stop there for a second and then, oh, no, no, no, no, no, not at all. Let's tell the, tell the listeners what, what do they get when they open up this book?
Michelle Moore, PhD: I think you get a little bit of everything, hopefully in a streamlined process. You know, a lot of my client’s stories and experiences and I kind of interweave them in throughout the book just in well with respect to confidentiality and hopefully relatability, but you get the very human authentic experience that really is, not really edited. Those are true things that are happening that I think hopefully people can relate to, as well as a lot of educational information and therapeutic information, just that I've experienced with working with my clients. Like I always say, like, I've learned probably more from my clients than they've learned from me. There's so much that has happened within the walls of my office, and I want to be able to provide that insight and information to people who might not ever have access to it. You know, and I think that's the beauty of a book. You know, it's, it's, there it is. And hopefully that's a start and can give you something that you wouldn't have had.
Jessica Fowler: I think you summed it up great because it's, you share your experience and then you bring in these other experiences that were different than yours. So, trying to be a little more well-rounded in that way, I guess, um, of different people's experiences and you use some humor and you bring up some situations that I, I have not read a lot on this topic, but you bring up some real situations that make sense that need to be talked about. Like I think one that stuck out to me was, you know, the first time going to, um, a birthday party. Like your couple friend’s birthday parties where you had a group of friends, right? And like, even, you know, dividing up the friends, who gets custody of the friends and what that looks like. These real things that people go through when they're ending a relationship.
Michelle Moore, PhD: And they don't know, right? I mean, it's very personal, right? There's all kinds of emotions and it's difficult. People have different reactions and it's hard not to take that personally. It's about you, right? And you don't know what to share, how much to share and what's going to help or what's going to be too much information and how people are going to react. And, and then when things shift, you don't really know what to expect. You know, you don't know, you don't know that you're going to be okay, probably better than that on the other end. It doesn't feel like that at that point, but it can be okay. You know, overall people. We want to be there for one another. You know, I think that's, we're social creatures. It's kind of how we're wired as far as survival. It's just that we don't always know the connections and the ones that are going to last and the ones that aren't. And it's hard not to have that affect you, I guess, when any relationship ends.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. True. What would you say, what, what would be some advice you would give people just going through this process? What do you think is, what do you think was helpful for you or something you shared in the book that was helpful?
Michelle Moore, PhD: I think to not get discouraged. I see that sometimes often in my office where, you know, based on family history, you know, like I remember, I don't know if I mentioned in this book, but when I, um, when I was my first therapist years ago, I don't even think I was married yet. I wasn't. And I remember him saying, cause my mom had been divorced five times, right? I'm sure I mentioned that. And I remember my therapist said, well, then you're never going to get divorced. And I'm like, yeah, I will. And I thought, okay, that's first of all, a dumb response. But I thought, I wonder what he meant. And what he meant was you're going to fight against that just because you don't want to repeat that pattern. And I think that was a part of my thinking, like it wasn't until someone mentioned that they did it, that I even thought it was an option, not for me. You know, and I do see that often where people, not that I want to talk anybody into getting a divorce because I don't, if someone is saying, this is clearly what I want and this is what's going to lead me to a fulfilling life and this is better for both of us and it's just the end. And then they kind of vacillate and they try to pull back from that and because they're afraid and they don't think they can do it. And that would be my advice is to try not to get discouraged. Like you've been doing it all, all along. Like you have to honor yourself. And, and give yourself a shot and see what you're capable of because it's, maybe you've forgotten all the stuff that you can do, you know, it's very easy to have tunnel vision and get stuck and then forget all the things that you're capable of doing.
Jessica Fowler: Or even acknowledging the things that you are doing. I think sometimes when things are hard, we just keep going and going and going and don't recognize those as things that we're actually doing because you'd like, you have to, you don't have a choice, right?
Michelle Moore, PhD: 100%. It's like that. And we forget, I think, especially as women, we are so used to taking care of so much. We just kind of get into this routine and pattern and kind of expectation. We're hard on ourselves. And it's like, okay, you deserve just as much as anybody else. It's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to take care of yourself. It's not bad to be selfish. That doesn't mean you're going to not help other people and take care of, you know, your family, but it's not bad to take care of you.
Jessica Fowler: And is that really being selfish?
Michelle Moore, PhD: No. Survival. It's what you should do, right? I mean, it's what you teach if you have children. It's what you teach them. You know, we tend to be hard on ourselves. We don't, we have different rules. We, we maybe are softer and kinder and more patient with others. And then different rules apply to us. And it's like, try to, try to take a look at the talk that you listen to in your own head. Try not to let, let it get you discouraged. Thinking, thinking, thinking. that things aren't going to be okay. They will be, they'll just be different.
Jessica Fowler: Which is an adjustment.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. I also think that change is inevitable. So, any opportunity that you have to have some power over it in making a choice is way better than waiting for that, that change to just hit you in the face.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah.
Michelle Moore, PhD: You have a say in your life.
Jessica Fowler: What would you say are one or two takeaways you would like your readers to walk away with?
Michelle Moore, PhD: I think the biggest takeaway would be that again, there's empowerment and enlightenment that can happen. And I would hope that, I think every reader probably will have a different kind of takeaway. I think it's just going to be different. I think just a little bit of maybe therapeutic information, you know, regarding how to, you know, take care of yourself and, and recognize your patterns and, and, you know, and, and make choices. I think that would be helpful for people. I also think some kind of concrete information. That's why I tried to kind of provide that in there so that people are like, okay, there is, there are some actual tools in here that I can use that I don't have to, you know, spend hours, you know, going through the internet and purging the junk and pulling stuff out. Like, okay, all of that stuff can be helpful, the information that's there and maybe more questions.
Jessica Fowler: And you do put, like, just to piggyback on that a little bit, you do provide, like, lots of resources in there, and, and too, there's a bunch of resources in the book that I think is worth pointing out too.
Michelle Moore, PhD: There are a lot of resources available, and I had to kind of cut some of them back. Then there's a lot that, that can be helpful that we just don't ever think about. I would want, I think I, I think the one takeaway would be that it doesn't have to be a horrifying process that keeps you stuck. Right? When you make decisions and you decide that you want to, you know, you want to make this change in your life because it's better for you, you can start to heal.
The second you decide, that's when healing starts, and I think that's important for people to know. Our bodies do that anyway. Our bodies want to adapt more than, than the opposite. So, it ends up always being okay, whatever that is. I think that's the big piece that it doesn't have to be all rosy and perfect.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. It's understanding it. Probably will be hard and we'll have hard days and hard moments and maybe hard months, but that you know it’s something to get through and to move on from.
Michelle Moore, PhD: and people You're not that person reading the book is not the only person who's gotten divorced or is getting divorced or thinking about divorce You know like you're not alone. I guess that would be a big thing. You're not alone at all there's a lot of support out there and a lot of people are going to understand. And I think that's the piece I, it was helpful for me when, when I started seeing that clearly I'm not alone, even my married friends had thoughts about it and things like that was helpful. Like, okay, I'm not broken. Things aren't, you know, it's not like I failed or those are super important things for people to recognize and understand that that is not the case.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. It doesn't have to be your story. Who would you say this book is for?
Michelle Moore, PhD: I would say pretty much any woman who has either thought of, or in the process of, or has ended somewhere along that, that, you know, that road, a divorce, thinking about it, moving toward it, either made the decision or doesn't know how to make the decision. It's going to be for any woman who's somewhere on that path, depending on, you know, where they are, they're going to probably pull something different from it. You know, if they start at the beginning, in the middle of the end, it doesn't really matter what and what you need from it, whatever you can gleam.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, because I mean, definitely in the beginning or like if you're thinking about it and during the process, but even the after I understand almost that sense of like, oh, this person went through it too and these are the things that I've been dealing with. Like you said, like those stories of those after, like when you separated and trying to navigate life are very relatable. And so, I can, I can see how that can be helpful. You know, like I said in the beginning, it's, it's like, it's a light read. It's not a heavy read in that way. And so, I think the girlfriend's guide is an appropriate, appropriate line in there.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah. I think that's the idea, right? Like somebody who's going to be there and, and help you through the process where it's like, okay. You know, I mean, like my neighbor was like that for me. It was just. Yeah. There was so much mirroring between the two of us, you know, I remember we would laugh just because sometimes it was so ridiculous, some things, right? Like, I remember going over to her house and going, oh, my God, I would say, you know, my husband, whatever, just is. It might be getting laid off and she's like, I got your beat. Mine got laid off a week ago. And I'm like, you always have to one up me. Like it's like, I've got one kid, you've got three, hi. But it's so because it's so much and you're just like, of course it is. Of course it's happening.
Jessica Fowler: Is this the same neighbor? I don't know if you want to share the story, but I think about sort of the, you know, creating your own community. It's, you know, like needing help and being vulnerable in that way. But about the, um, barbecue in the toolbox, I to share that story, but I loved that story.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Her little pink tool. Yeah. It's, it's, she's kind of, and it's stuff like that where she, and she's a little go getter. You want to hear the story? Okay. Yeah. Basically, I realized I didn't have a barbecue anymore and I had to order one on Amazon and it came, I thought it would come in like a barbecue, but it was like in a box and it's like, oh my God. And of course, she's got all those handy dandy tools, like she's one of those. It took us forever to put this barbecue together, but we did it all day. And because I didn't have the tools, I didn't, I had no idea what anything was. And then I think it was later that day or a couple of days, whatever it was, all of a sudden, I smell gas. And that's when I said, if you smell gas, call the fire department. And I'm like, and I'm thinking, I don't, I can't, I have to go take my kid to flag football. Maybe I can leave it. She's like, you can't leave it. So, I had to call the fire department. And these giant guys in hazmat gears, we hear you have a gas leak. I'm like, my barbecue. They came in and they, my kid was so excited, he's like texting his friends and they come in and now they're telling me that I have to use Teflon tape and he's explaining it to me and the other guy's like, dude, it's going right over her head.
Jessica Fowler: But just that idea with like two women coming together, right? Like you struggled, you got help.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: And then you're able to figure it out. But even just that idea, right? Like, oh, I don't have a barbecue anymore. Like my grill is now gone. Yeah. And now I need a grill because right in this scenario, your kid's friends were coming over or something.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah. They want to barbecue. And I'm like, okay, I don't know how that works. I don't know. Propane. There was off on. I was, I went through, I was going through a propane tank every two weeks and I did not know why. And you know, I got all this advice, but nobody there to do it. So yes, she and I had to figure it out and, and, you know, rely on. Fire department, things like that. So yeah, she's the one who helped me figure out how to get a Christmas tree in my little car. Right. And then I had to bring it back because I didn't have a bottom and I didn't know how to do stuff. Cause my, cause I walked out to my garage to get my Christmas tree and the box was still there, but it was gone. My ex took it out of the box. So I'm like, that's where I'm like, my house is not Costco. So, I had to figure that stuff out.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah.
Michelle Moore, PhD: But yeah, my neighbor, we would, we were, We helped each other in ways that we just needed to because we were trying to figure it out. I was a little further along in the process, but the stories are very similar. And I think that's the idea that nothing's really new. Someone else has heard it and worked through it. I think that's a big deal for women to know that's the part of being alone. You know, we can all kind of relate and go, yeah, I know what that's like. To be nervous or afraid or, or worried about money and, and you will find support when you don't expect it. Even my doctor, I think I made an appointment once during my divorce, I think it was right before that. And she said, she, she's the first one who said, you know, why is divorce so expensive? Because it's worth it. She's the one who said that to me, you know, and it doesn't have to be as expensive as you think. There is that part where it's a process.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. You talked about that a little bit, different options that people have used.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Yeah, that you can negotiate. You can tell your attorney, you know what, that's too high. Can we go lower? Things are always workable. You just have to ask and figure it out. Like don't be afraid. You know, you might be surprised.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Thank you for having me.
Jessica Fowler: Where can our listeners connect with you?
Michelle Moore, PhD: They can connect. I have a website, um, and an author Facebook page as well that I actually had just started. I'm not as savvy on social media, but they can either, yeah, they can contact me through my website or, um, on my Facebook author page for starters. And then if new changes come up, I will post those as well.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Great. Thank you.
Michelle Moore, PhD: Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. I really appreciate it.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media. To find out about the latest giveaway.
The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.