Episode 8: Elizabeth Gillette, LCSW

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  Jessica Fowler: Welcome back, listeners. Today, we are talking with Elizabeth Gillette, LCSW. She's an attachment specialist. In her practice, she supports her clients in developing secure ways of relating and improving the relationships through individual and couple therapy, mentoring, and self-paced online attachment courses.

 

She believes in the healing power of connection, community, long walks, and warm cups of tea. She lives in Asheville, North Carolina with her family.  And today we're talking to her about her book attachment theory workbook for couples exercises to strengthen and grow your relationship. And please note the information shared in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only.

 

 Welcome, Elizabeth.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Hi, Jessica. Thank you so much for having me.

 

Jessica Fowler: I'm so glad to talk about this topic. It comes up all the time in therapy.  It's an

important topic.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes, very much so. Yes. And same for me. I mean, it was definitely one of those things where when I started. Really digging into this work. I recognized how foundational it is for all of us as human beings. Um, and especially when it comes to understanding and working on our relationships. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Well, let's start there. Maybe what kind of brought you to this work of attachment?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah. So I, I really came to this work, um, from a personal place. So, I was doing as a therapist, I was doing young child work. I was also doing pregnancy and postpartum and perinatal work. And I was really recognizing that there were patterns arising in my own relationship with my partner and it was stumping me. I did not know what was going on. I felt so frustrated because, you know, and we've been together now for 11 years, but at the very beginning, I just noticed these sort of behaviors that I kept engaging in and things that kept happening for me and emotional patterns. And I was super frustrated so I ended up picking up Sue Johnson's book,  Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, which is so wonderful. If you haven't read it, highly recommend. Um, and so I picked that up and it felt like this whole new world opened for me. And I really, at that point, I really just started digging and researching kind of on a personal level and trying to understand the different attachment styles and understand the relational patterns that arise as a result of those styles.

 

And that's really, so that's kind of how I fell into it and then picked it up on a professional level and took lots of trainings and, you know, have done lots of research in that way and just become very experienced in that realm. 

 

Jessica Fowler: So how would you describe attachment theory to somebody who maybe isn't aware or maybe even needs a refresher?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah, absolutely. So, what I will say is that attachment theory in and of itself is very nuanced, right? But if we're looking at it from a very foundational or basic level,  in my experience, attachment theory is really about the relational patterns that we develop as a result of the, um, relationship experiences we have as children and those patterns continue to evolve. We continue to develop them over time into adulthood, but they're really sort of set when we're children and the relationships that we have with our caregivers and the other important people in our lives are what shape our worldview, right? Our sense of whether we feel safe in the world, whether we feel welcome in the world, whether we feel like the world is a good place for us. So, when I think about attachment theory, if we're looking at it, we're really sort of zooming out. That's what it's about. It's about how safe we feel about how welcome we feel about how much we feel like we can be ourselves even. Right. It's like a very sort of basic, what is our approach to the world and what does it feel like to us?

 

Jessica Fowler: And so when we think about attachment, maybe do that quick one on one overview, right? So kind of the types of attachment that we can end up with as adults.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah, absolutely. So, we sort of split attachment styles into two different categories. So, there's secure attachment and then there's insecure attachment.

 

Secure attachment is essentially what we're all going for. Even those of us who might have a primarily secure attachment style. There's always things that we can do to feel more secure and feel more grounded and feel more solid in our relationships. But essentially when we're talking about a secure attachment style, we're, we're talking about feeling, feeling safe in the world.

 

We're talking about feeling welcomed in the world. We're talking about being able to communicate clearly about our needs, feeling comfortable, even having needs, right? Like that's a big, that's a big piece of this is being able to understand and communicate our needs, clearly feeling like the people who we are in relationship with are essentially giving us the benefit of the doubt and we're doing the same for them.  So, relationships when we are feeling secure tend to be a little bit more calm, more grounded, they feel safer, they're predictable, they're consistent, they're reliable, right? Those are sort of the tenants of secure attachment.

 

And there's a couple of ways that we can have secure attachment. We can either develop secure attachment based on our relationships growing up. If we grew up in a family that was Um, you know, that felt predictable, that felt safe, that felt reliable, where our emotional needs were met, where we felt like we were seen for who we are as humans and accepted for that. The other way that we can develop secure attachment is by we, and I say this in quotations is by earning it.  So, the idea there is that. Even if we grew up with a more insecure style or we have a more insecure background in terms of like our family system, we can come to secure attachment through our own work, through our own learning and through our own healing, through therapy, through, um, you know, our own sort of reading our own research, our own practices and engagement in, in more of like the secure realm.

 

So that's the one that's the one part, right? And then the other, the other category is insecure attachment and within the insecure attachment category, there are three styles,  anxious, avoidant, and disorganized.  So, the anxious style, oftentimes we see people who have this style as sort of losing themselves a little bit in relationships. They feel insecure in their relationships because they're worried that maybe their partner is not going to stick around or they're going to be abandoned, or they're worried that their partner is mad at them or something's going on and they don't know about it. And so there's sort of, they can lose their own sense of self and go outside of themselves, trying to meet the needs of other people in order to make sure that their own needs get met in relationships.

 

Um, and it can be, I will say that that style oftentimes is very sort of physically activated when we're talking about the nervous system, right? So, you might see people who, who really do, who have the anxious style, who really are anxious, right? And you see that arising for them in their bodies. They might not be able to eat if there's something going on in their relationship or, um, you know, they're just generally feeling activated.

 

So the next style is the avoidance style. And I will just say this as a preface that I think that there. There is,  it's really important to name that there's a bad reputation for this style out in the world. I think that oftentimes mainstream attachment theory gets it wrong around the avoidance style.

 

So as with any other style, the avoidance style does not choose their attachment style. We don't get to choose that when we're children because we don't get to choose who our caregivers are or what our childhood is like. And with the avoidance style, oftentimes what we're seeing is a more internal focus. So, people with the avoidance style are more likely to what we call self-regulate or auto regulate. So rather than going to other people in their lives, when they're having a hard time, they turn inward, right? So, we see them typically maybe shutting down or pulling away or distancing themselves. And people who are in relationship with them when that happens can feel very frustrated. They feel shut out. And  it's really important just to know that even though on the surface, it might look like people who have the avoidance style, aren't having feelings. They're having very intense feelings on the inside, but they don't feel safe in the world to be able to share those things because oftentimes. Their experience in childhood was that their feelings weren't welcome that they weren't welcome for who they were. S,o it's really important for us to be clear about that. And then finally, there's the disorganized style, which is also called fearful avoidant. And we don't talk about this one as much, but I think it's very, very important that we do and that we name it really clearly.

 

So, the disorganized style.  When we're looking at this, we're talking about what can be and feel like a push pull dynamic in the relationship. If you are in a relationship with someone with this style. So, what we're noticing with that style is that there's this drive, this attachment drive to be connected to other people, but there's also a very deep visceral felt sense of fear around connecting with other people because of the experiences that they had in childhood. So oftentimes people who have this style had a more sort of volatile experience growing up, whether that was, um, caregivers who were. Emotionally or physically or sexually abusive, um, caregivers who had untreated mental health conditions happening, who had very little support, who are maybe using substances, um, homelessness. Um, we, I think it's really important that we talk about systems of oppression when we talk about the disorganized style, um, because that absolutely plays into this, right? Like the lack of support, the constant feeling of needing to be hypervigilant and aware of what was going on and how triggering that can be for caregivers.

 

And then of course the impact that has on the child. So,  so those are the three insecure styles. Um, and I just want to name and be very clear that all of us, regardless of whether we fall into that category or not, can move towards security. And in my belief, most of us have some degree of all of those insecure styles, right? So, there's always an opportunity for us to be practicing, becoming more secure and having awareness of the ways that those styles show up for us in our, in our relationships.

 

Jessica Fowler: No, I agree. I think it is important to say that because I think it is overwhelming to read attachment theory and then, you know, have maybe a realization, Oh, maybe I am anxious or have that attachment type or whatever it is. Right. But to know a couple of things, the one, it's a  bottom line is kind of about safety, right in the relationship. And, you know, for someone I work with a lot of. Um, parents who have newly become parents and attachment theory is more well-known right people are more aware of it, and are aware of the secure attachment and also to know that it doesn't have to be like 100 percent of the time to like that's an important piece like you can still. You don't have to be this perfect parent to create the secure attachment with your child. 

 

Elizabeth Gillette: 100%. Yes. And I actually, the statistic is around 30 percent of the time, right? For us to be 30 percent attunement, right? So when we're talking about being aware of what's happening with our child, being aware of their emotions, responding appropriately to them, engaging with them, making eye contact, 30 percent of the time, right? Which is like, you're probably giving way more than 30%, you know? And so, I think remembering that piece too, because I agree with you. I think it's so easy for us to be hard on ourselves and be worried as parents about what we're providing and if we're going to give our, our children that security that we really want them to have. Um, and I think most of us are doing, especially our generation, right? Things are really shifting in terms of parenting and that approach now. So, I think that's important to note too. I'm glad you brought that up.

 

Jessica Fowler: Yeah. And too, I heard you speak on this. So if I want, I want you to say a little bit about this. It's not about. Blaming your parents too. If you have, you know, not a fully secure attachment style, can you speak on that?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes. So, I think it's, and this is something I've seen as I've done, you know, therapy work is that when we start to get into like, what was your family? Like, how was your upbringing? A lot of times people are like, it was great.

 

Right. And I'm like, okay, like that gets to be true. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk more specifically about what you felt like in your childhood, if you felt like people got you, right, did your caregivers get you? Do you feel like you were really welcomed for who you were? And then oftentimes when we start to dig into that, there's a little bit of like, well, you know, my parents really had these expectations for me, or, um, it was really hard I didn't feel like I could fully be myself in this way, or I was scared to tell my parents this or when I did tell them they really shut me down or they told me it wasn't okay, or, you know, whatever it was. And so,  I think it's really important that we recognize that as we are, you know, acknowledging these aspects of our upbringing, that are, we recognize for the most part that our parents did their best, right now, everyone has their own relationship with that. I'm not here to define that for folks. They may feel that their parents did not do their best. And that is. Absolutely valid, right? And I think generally parents are are trying, right? They might not have the resources or the tools or the language or the understanding or the support to be able to provide that sense of security for their kids.  And so I think that We can approach this very realistically and also bring a big dose of compassion to our caregivers, to our childhood, and also recognize that we get to feel better. We get to feel more secure as adults and we have that power now.

 

Jessica Fowler: Yes. We have the ability to change. Absolutely.

 

Elizabeth Gillette : Yes.

 

Jessica Fowler: And I always, I like to describe it in a way of  that for not all parents, but in general, I think most try to do the best that they could with the tools that they had. Right? And so they didn't know and different generations raised kids in a different way. And like you said, this generation is raising kids in a different way, right? There's more knowledge around attachment theory, for example.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Definitely. Yes.

 

Jessica Fowler: So, when someone picks up your book,  what are they getting inside?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah. So we do a little bit of a deeper dive into each of the attachment styles and really talk about where those attachment styles come from, what it looks like when you're in a relationship in that way, whether it's you or your partner. Um, and then we also have, there's so many tools and practices in this book, which I really love.

 

Um, and I think it's really important because in my experience doing attachment work, we can think about attachment. All day long, but until we are practicing and actually engaging differently in our relationships, we're going to see some of those same patterns arise. So, we go through each of the different styles.

 

We talk about all of these different activities that you can practice and engage in on your own with a partner. I know it's called attachment theory workbook for couples, but I also recommend this book for folks who are on their own or they're interested in dating or they're just had a breakup or, you know, whatever's going on that there's lots of opportunities to practice those things on your own.

 

Um, or if you're in a relationship with someone who's maybe not so interested in practicing those different things, you can still bring that element of security to your relationship. And when you do that, it automatically shifts the dynamics. So, there's lots of opportunity for that. And then the second half of the book is a look at the different attachment style interplays.

So, this to me was something that I felt like was unique and I hadn't read before. So, we go through nine of the different attachment pairings. So, let's say you're, you are someone with the anxious style and you're dating someone with the avoidance style, or you're someone with the disorganized style and you're dating someone who's more secure.

 

How does this look in the relationship? What are some of the challenges that are, that might arise? What are some of the strengths that come from that pairing? And then how can you specifically enhance your relationship. If those are the styles that you are both bringing. So, I think it's really important for us to recognize that there's so many different options for creating more security and that we're never stuck. I tell that to my therapy and coaching clients all the time. We are never stuck. And if something is arising in your relationship, that's feeling frustrating. There's definitely an opportunity to shift that. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. And I did, I noticed that about the book and I liked that because the examples you give, I feel like reading any of those are things you hear all the time. Like example, example, they may present a little differently, but they're very relatable. And it was like, oh, this is so good. So, somebody who, you know, has this one attachment type is recognizes, oh, like, that's what my partner is like, oh, here are some ways that we can either work together or I can work on this for myself.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes.

 

Jessica Fowler: To understand what that other person is going through. It's not that, you know, give it, they hate me. And then they're mad at me all the time. Right.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Right. 

 

Jessica Fowler: They're avoided and they can just shut down. Yeah, you can work with that once you know what it is.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes, for sure. And I think that that's the other piece of it. I love that you mentioned that because when we are able to develop a deeper understanding of what's happening for our partners, like we're often looking and researching about ourselves, right? Unless maybe you're someone who has more of the anxious style and then you're probably really like diving into the, but you know, like, Oh, my partner's avoided. What do I do? You know, um, which is, I think just, it's a, a characteristic of that style for us to just acknowledge. And so, I think that if we're able to really get clear about, Oh, this is what's happening for my partner when we are feeling disconnected or there's a rupture in our relationship, when we can see our partner more clearly,  it gives us so much more compassion and understanding.

 

And I think spaciousness  then for examining how can we shift this? What can we do differently here? It gives us options, you know, whereas like, if we see our partner in a very specific way, we're doing, we're playing our own part in creating that dynamic and it's, and we get to do something else. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Well, and it's changing it too. It's not about me, right? It's not what I did.  Oh, like they're having their own experience and just kind of recognizing that and having the compassion for it.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. 

 

Jessica Fowler: And I liked too that throughout the book, you listed a lot of the positives,  right? Like here are some, you know, things that are positive about this.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes.  Yeah. Right. Absolutely. Right. And I think we all have to recognize that our attachment styles are adaptations, right? They came about for a reason. We came by our attachment styles, honestly, and they have helped us survive in some way. Right. So, I think that honoring that and really honoring our past and honoring our experiences is critical to our healing process, right? And to deciding how we want to move forward, right? And what security really looks like for us and what we want to bring to our relationships. And I talk a lot about, about relational values in the book too, right? Being able to say, what is it that I want to provide for my partner? What do I hope my partner provides for me and how can I stay in alignment with those things when I'm feeling emotionally triggered or my nervous system is activated, because I think that those, those pieces can help guide us as we are working, you know, working together on our relationship or even doing our own personal work.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Two things you just said, wait,  two things that you just said are one kind of acknowledging that the nervous system is activated. Right. So even that knowledge I think is really important.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah.

 

Jessica Fowler: And the other one being this idea that you have to honor that that part has done that, that attachment style, that part has worked really hard for you. And it's not about initially taking that away,  right, because it's, it's served a purpose.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes.

 

Jessica Fowler: Creating that knowledge and that compassion, and then working with it to understand, right. That things can be different.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes, absolutely. Right. Because not all of the behaviors that align with the insecure styles are, and I, again, I say this in quotes are bad, right. Or things that we don't want to have often times the insecure styles bring so much goodness to a relationship, right? Like there's a lot that is happening that I think is really positive and becoming more secure is really sort of bringing in again, this kind of like foundational piece about feeling safer in the world and being able to be yourself. And that's going to allow you then to then show up more fully in your relationship. So, I don't think that we should be saying like, Oh, this style is bad, or this style is good. This is, you know, there's a lot of judgment that is floating out in the world around that. Um, and I know that's the thing that sometimes people don't want to hear, right? It's easier to do sort of like the black or white, either or thinking, and it feels,  it feels especially like if we're hurting in a relationship, if we sort of condemn the other person and say, well, you have the bad attachment style, you're the one who needs to do the work, right? We're sort of taking the accountability piece out for ourselves.

 

And I am here to just keep showing up and saying, like, we all play a role in our relationships. We all play a role in our experiences and we all have things that we can do to feel more secure and bring that security to our, not only our relationships, but our families, our communities, it's, you know, it's one of those like ripple effect things. And I think that we can't, we can't separate. Attachment theory from the greater sort of community experience.

 

Jessica Fowler: Oh, definitely. Cause you know, it's happens obviously much more. You see the attachment style much more in the people you interact with every day and live with. But yeah, something happens in the community, right back and get highlighted. Like, oh, right. And you have a reaction to it.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes. And even as therapists, right. I mean, I think we need to be very honest with ourselves, right. About how our own attachment styles impact how we do our work. And I think that that, you know, as, if you're a therapist listening and thinking about reading, right?

 

It's like, it might be a good idea to read through once for yourself and then once for your clients, right? Because I think that there's, there's so much that we can learn about how we can show up more securely in our therapeutic relationships, right? And what that looks like and how to navigate our own nervous system activation, which is inevitable, right? I mean, we learn, we learn that, but then. What do we do with it? Right. And how are we actively, um, addressing some of those things that arise because that's our work to do as well. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Maybe that's a little reminder to the therapist listening to continue to do the

work.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes.  Yes. It's not just about your personal life. Right.

 

Jessica Fowler: Yeah. You continue to do the work.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Um, so it is nice to see, like you have these exercises in there and it provides a good knowledge base of what to do. And you have, what I like too is that there's ways to look at it for yourself and there's a ways to look at it for a couple to do this work because I think you said that's right. This is for, well maybe you can say, who do you think this book is for?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah. So, I think this book can be for a lot of people. I think it can be for people who are on their own sort of journey around healing. Right. And they want to incorporate attachment theory and attachment work in that journey. I think it can be really supportive when you're maybe in therapy and you're doing, you're doing other things, right?

But you're really wanting to focus on what, how do I show up in my relationships and what does this look like? I think it's really great for couples. I think it's one of those things that you can hand to a couple and say, go home and practice these things. See what happens around  initiating the practice, right? Like who's the person who's often initiating it. How does it feel to be doing the exercises? What happens afterwards? You know, like, I think that there's a lot that a lot that can arise for couples, um, when they're tasked with trying something new. And so I think it can, you know what I mean? We can be sort of meta about it. Right. But be able to look at, um, you know, what is this process like for you all? And. And then I think having these opportunities to create, um, safe vulnerability, right. And safe connection where if couples haven't done work like this before, it can feel kind of intense, you know? So, I think that doing it with a structure like this can be really supportive. So, I think generally when I was writing, that's, that's who I was writing. In mind. 

 

Jessica Fowler: That makes sense to me because I, when I was reading this, I was thinking of all of those, right. It's for couples. I would love for couples to sit down and read this together and work on it together in individual, whether they're dating or not dating  or in a partnership to just be able to get to know about themselves. But as a therapist, like, hey, you know, even in session, let's dive into this. Here's some things you can do. Take it home, read it. And the exercises are not overwhelming. I want to note that, that sometimes you can have lists and lists and lists of all these things that you can do, and they're, they're not overwhelming. And especially when you look at the book, when it's. You know,  you're kind of with it. If you're doing it within a partnership and a couple, you're really kind of talking about two attachment styles, right? I think it's important to know them, especially if you have other people in your life that can help maybe provide that framework to understand what's going on, but it doesn't have to be overwhelming in that way. And it's, it's not overwhelming with a lot of things to do.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yes. I really wanted to make it feel accessible for folks. Um, and feel like you could pick up a book and even if you had, I mean, 20 minutes to sit down with your partner or someone you're dating, right. If they're interested in doing this work with you and be able to just, it's an opportunity to share. It's an opportunity to learn more about each other. It's an opportunity to grow. And I think that those moments, those small moments of connection makes such a big difference. And again, that deeper understanding of, I think, I think there's a lot of opportunities to learn about your partner essentially with this book and learn about yourself and be able to say, oh, I didn't realize that that experience that I had informed how I see relationships or even how I see my partner, right? There's a lot for us to be able to process through and examine. Um, and I think that that is a really lovely opportunity for ourselves and our relationships. 

 

Jessica Fowler: I like that you say it like that, a lovely opportunity, an opportunity for growth.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: No, it is 100%.

 

Jessica Fowler: I agree. It just sounded so nice saying it that way.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Oh, thank you. 

 

Jessica Fowler: What are one or two things you would like your readers to walk away with?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: I think I would like for folks to know that once again, we kind of circled around this in the beginning, but that no one is ever stuck. There's always opportunity for growth and change. Even if we feel like, oh my gosh, I've had such a hard life or my partner has had such a hard life. And I don't know if this can ever get better. I just really feel like. When we bring in that consistency in terms of safety and reliability and connection, those opportunities for growth are all over the place. And I think that being patient and being compassionate is a really important aspect of that. So, I would like to, I think that's one thing I would like folks to know.

 

Um, I also think that you know, in terms of navigating the different attachment pairings that there's no bad pairing. Right. And I've gotten, it's been so interesting to see how people receive that.  A lot of people want to say, of course, there are bad pairings. Like how could you ever? And I just, I really believe with all of my heart that there are no bad pairings. And I think that we are often drawn to each other in relationships because our partner or another person who we're in relationship with is offering us an opportunity to grow and heal. And that does not always feel good, right? Often times it feels triggering. Often times it feels frustrating.  But I think if we continue to approach it and we do it in ways that are like gentle, rather than really abrupt or intense, we're going to start seeing movement. And I think that when we can be in a relationship where the dynamic is maybe kind of volatile in the beginning or very frustrating or whatever, and we start to see those changes and we feel those changes. It's so empowering to remember that like we're engaged in that work, the work that we do matters in relationships.

So, I think those are, those are a couple of like bigger concepts that I hope folks would walk away with.

 

Jessica Fowler: Thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: You're so welcome. This was such a lovely conversation. I really appreciate you having me.

 

Jessica Fowler: Oh, no problem. Anytime. Um, we'll write another book, right?

 

Elizbeth Gillette: Exactly.  I have big plans. So, let's hope it works out. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Well, where can our listeners connect with you and purchase your book?

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah. Thank you so much for asking. So, um, my counseling website is heirloom counseling. com. I have tons and tons of blog posts, like hundreds of blog posts on there, um, with lots of free information about attachment styles and deep dives into different aspects of attachment theory. Um, and then I also do, um, attachment coaching. So that website is Elizabeth Gillette. com. Um, and I offer, you know, groups around attachment. I have three online courses, one about anxious style, one about the avoided style and one about developing more of the secure style. So, um, lots of opportunities for that. 

 

Jessica Fowler: Excellent. Thank you so much.

 

Elizabeth Gillette: Yeah. Thank you.

 

Jessica Fowler: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out if there's a giveaway going on.  The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only and although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.

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