Episode 36: Joy Malik-Hasbrook, Ph.D.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Oh, I mean, just what a gift for kids to know I am not responsible for anyone else's dysregulation.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome to What Your Therapist Is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we are speaking with Dr. Joy Malik Hasbrook. Her book is called A Kid's Book About Nervous System Regulation. Dr. Joy Malik Hasbrook is a licensed clinical psychologist who helps children feel seen and grown-ups heal.
She provides regulation and resiliency-based parenting support, specializes in neurodiversity assessments with kids, and presents on nervous system regulation and neurodiversity affirming assessments. If you are enjoying these episodes and would like to support the podcast, the best way is to leave us a review.
And after today's episode, make sure you follow along on social media @therap bookspodcast for the latest giveaway and know the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back listeners. Today we are speaking with Dr. Joy Malik Hasbrook about her book, a kid's book about the nervous system.
Welcome.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Thank you, Jessica. It's so wonderful to be with you.
Jessica Fowler: I'm excited to talk about this book. I love children's books that talk about the nervous system. Um, but before we kind of dive into that, I have this question I like to ask, and I was wondering if you could share a memory about reading how it has impacted you?
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: First, I just want to say I love that question. It really got me in this reflective place and I'll just share three memories. The first is my mom reading to me as a child and that comfort and connection that I felt. And then in my mid 20s going through a big stressor, a book by Pema Chandran was given to me and she's a Buddhist author and it was just remarkable for me. And then as a mom, reading to my kids has been very special. And what we can discuss through books is very powerful with them.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. Reading with my kids is definitely one of my favorite memories too. Well, it's still occurring, but (laughing).
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: that's right.
Jessica Fowler: So let's talk about this. Let's kind of maybe just start with the nervous system and share a little bit about how you present that in the book.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Absolutely. So, the nervous system is made up of our brain, our body, and our spine. It manages our daily experience without us realizing it. Sleeping, eating, sensations. And my book focuses on our protective stress responses, basically how our nervous system keeps us alive, keeps us feeling safe, the focus on survival.
And there's three main parts that or tracks that I talk about in regards to nervous system regulation. So, the first is when we're regulated, this is for mammals, we're regulated when we feel safe and connected. That's how our nervous system is wired. And when you're in a regulated place, we call this green energy.
Or from a polyvagal theory, we call it the ventral. So, when we're in this green energy place, we can handle stress. We're feeling enough safety and connection that we can manage what's coming up. It's not that hard things aren't happening, it's that we stay in a place where our thinking and survival brain is working together. We can be creative. We can feel really present. That's our regulated place.
And then alternatively, we have two main tracks that are our protective adaptive stress responses. So, the oldest one is what we call the blue energy. And in polyvagal theory, this would be our dorsal. This is when our nervous system shuts down to protect us.
So, we minimize the use of our energy. We move slowly. We may disconnect. We might feel more tired. We may feel like we're withdrawing. So that's the blue. And then there's the red energy. This is our fight, flight, or the sympathetic from a polyvagal theory. And that's when we mobilize to protect ourselves.
So, this can look like if you're running away quickly, trying to get out of a situation, or it can even be criticizing, yelling when a kid is trying to hit. That's a full fight response that they're in. So, what happens to our nervous system that makes us go into a stress response is when we're experiencing something that is overwhelming us, that we're feeling threatened, we're not feeling enough safety and connection, and something will trigger our protective stress response.
This is actually out of our conscious awareness. This happens before we even process visual information. So, our brain and our nervous system is constantly monitoring our environment to make sure that we're safe. And what can happen is that sometimes because of past stress, or things that we've experienced, we can have a too easily quickly triggered stress response or it lasts a really long time and it's hard for us to come back and bring enough green energy.
But it's important to know that these are all attempts for our nervous system to keep us safe. And, you know, why I wrote this book and why I talk about it is to really build compassion. This is a universal human experience that we will get dysregulated. And sometimes it really helps us, like avoiding a car accident or getting away from a bully. And then other times when we're dysregulated, we may say or do things that isn't actually what we wanted to do and may hurt us or other people.
Jessica Fowler: So that's a lot of information, but you presented it nicely in a children's book. Can you share a little bit about what that looks like in the children's book?
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Yeah. So, in the children's book, it's really meant for kids and grownups to read together. Part of why I wrote this book is this is the book I wanted as a parent, but it's also the book I want as a psychologist, I'm teaching this to kids and families that I'm working with so that they can understand what's happening when they get dysregulated.
And in the book, we're really talking about it through this color system and what happens to our brain. So, when our brain becomes overwhelmed or threatened, that thinking brain goes offline and our survival brain takes over. And that's when we talk about the red and the blue energy as part of those survival systems.
Jessica Fowler: Well, it gives language to kids to, like, to notice I'm in the red. Right. And so that they can do that. The parents can understand that and that they can reflect on that for themselves too.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Yeah. And, you know, when we, in the book, I also, one of my favorite parts is talking about repair, right. And say as a parent, if I get dysregulated, I can come back to my child and say, hey, I was in the red. I am really sorry. That wasn't okay that I yelled. How can I help? Right? Or you can really start to reflect if you're regulated. Now we can't help our child regulate or co-regulate unless we're regulated as parents. Right? So, when we are in that regulated open state, we can say to them, oh, I'm noticing some red energy. What does your body need right now? Let's take a break. Let's take some breaths and come back. Let's bring some green energy here.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. And I said this to you before, I forget exactly what the words are, but one of the things I loved about this book, well, one that you're supposed to read it together. But the other part and that one of the lines in there is that a parent say, or how did you say it, that it's not the child's fault if the parent basically is dysregulated. And I thought that that was really important in the relationship for a child to hear that, that it's not their fault. And right. And then I think the next page is talking about the repair, which is so important, which is one of, I think one of the best tools as parents we have, um, right. Cause we're not perfect, but we can talk about that and understand it in the, in the way of this is our nervous system about being dysregulated.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, the way kids brains are developing, they often are perceiving things to be sort of their fault or their responsibility. And when we can kind of level the playing field, like we're all human here, um, I think it's helpful for parents to know, too, that because kids brains are still developing, they actually have a more easily triggered nervous system, right? Their brain doesn't fully develop till they're mid-twenties, so I think it can help parents have empathy, which brings green energy. That actually helps us regulate when we can attune and have empathy for a child, and then oh, I mean, just what a gift for kids to know I am not responsible for anyone else's dysregulation.
Jessica Fowler: Mm hmm. Right. I think that's really important to know, especially growing up when you feel like it's your fault or if you did something right, we can start at a young age and learn that that person is responsible for their own nervous system. And what happens.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Yeah. And I mean, we do influence each other, but it really is our responsibility as adults to know our nervous system, what triggers our nervous system and what helps us. Like I know Like I have, I'm really sensitive if like my children are yelling and I just say I have to take a break and go regulate and that's great modeling too.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. That modeling, I'm going to go just take a break for a minute.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Right. And it's not because of you. It's because I know I need a break.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. My system is, this is, we're talking about my system, not what you're doing, my system. That's right. Yeah. What would you say are one or two takeaways you would like your readers to walk away with?
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: I think, the whole reason I wrote this is to increase compassion. So, with that, it's that, you know, we're wired to feel safe in connection. If we don't have enough connection or there's threat, that's where the dysregulation comes from, that there's a lot underneath a child yelling. And when we can have that attunement and that creates so much compassion, and you know, it's really building the awareness. Um, Deb Dana is like a wonderful author about polyvagal theory, and she talks about you're really befriending your nervous system. You're not rejecting what's coming up, which is also a very contemplative approach to our emotions, that we can turn toward the stress and care for it and take care of it. That would be my hope with the book. And then what we talked about the repair and our responsibility.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Who would you say your book is for?
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: I would say my book is for any grownup with kids, probably even as young as maybe preschool, kindergarten, and like all the way through possibly middle school. But it's really for grown-ups and kids, clinicians and kids, educators. I go to classrooms and share the book. And I think it's a great tool in therapy. Like that's a huge thing that I wanted. And with parenting support, it's a great way that the parents can teach the kids what we're working on. So, you know.
Jessica Fowler: I think a lot of, um, healing can happen as adults when you read these things, because then you can have that understanding for yourself. Like I've seen that a lot as people read a, you know, parenting books in this way of what the nervous system is, or even what triggers are, you know, whatever's going on that it's like, oh, like you said in the book, I wish I had this book when I was younger, you know, it helps kind of make sense of what's happening or what's been happening.
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I think as parents, we have an opportunity where what's coming up for us as parents is such an opportunity for us to heal things from our childhood. And when we can have this kind of structure and frame and compassion, we can really do that work instead of like reacting all the time or being hard on ourselves. We can give ourselves that opportunity to heal.
Jessica Fowler: Well, thank you so much for coming on today. Where can our listeners connect with you?
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook: Great, so they can find me on Instagram, which is drjoy_compassionateparenting. And thank you, Jessica. I'm always excited to talk about nervous system regulation and working with kids and their parents.
Jessica Fowler: Yes. Well, thank you. It is a great resource. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only.
And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Dr. Joy Malik-Hasbrook, PsyD (she/her), is a licensed clinical psychologist who helps children feel seen and grownups heal. She provides regulation and resiliency-based parenting support, specializes in neurodiversity assessments with kids, and presents on nervous system regulation and neurodiversity-affirming assessment. She is a mama of 2, a highly sensitive human, and biracial of South Asian Indian/white descent. She values integrating both Asian contemplative practices and contemporary psychology into her work and is committed to anti-oppressive practices. Dr. Joy understands how challenges with dysregulation create more distress. She believes that understanding nervous system regulation leads to compassion and resiliency and that all families should have access to this information—this book is a start!