Episode 57: Anna Gazmarian
Anna Gazmarian: For me, the hardest part of the diagnosis was reconciling my faith with mental illness because for so long, that was attributed to sin and demons. And once I was confronted with it, I didn't really know how it fit in my life and if it was possible to continue living a faith.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to What Your Therapist Is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. Today, we are speaking with Anna Gazmarian about her book, Devout, A Memoir of Doubt. Welcome Listen as Anna shares about her evangelical upbringing and how she navigated the stigma around her mental health and receiving treatment. Anna holds an MFA in creative writing from Bennington Writing Seminars. Her essays have been published in a variety of places, including The Sun Magazine, The Guardian, and Longreads. I will add a trigger warning to this episode as we do discuss struggles with mental health. After today's episode, head on over to @therapybookspodcast to learn about the latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back listeners today. We are speaking with Anna Gazmarian about her book Devout. Welcome.
Anna Gazmarian: Thank you so much for having me.
Jessica Fowler: I like to start the podcast with asking this question. What is a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Anna Gazmarian: So growing up in the church, a lot of the reading that I did was around Christianity and around, um, the Bible and I mean, I read all the things in school, like to Kill a Mockingbird, but nothing really resonated with me. And I remember being I think it was my 18th birthday and I remember going and getting The Bell Jar because it was a really cool cover. And that was like the first time that I read a book and felt myself on the pages. And I, I saw literature as a mirror and a way of giving me language to things that I wasn't able to put into words. And that was part of when I started writing what I wanted to accomplish.
Jessica Fowler: And what is your hope of how your book impacts others?
Anna Gazmarian: I think part of the book is, like I said with The Bell Jar, is just helping people articulate things that they're not able to have language for yet and helping people feel seen and validating their experiences. I think spiritual trauma is one of those things that we don't talk about enough because it's a type of trauma that is really hard to pinpoint. And I would say it's kind of in the vein of complex PTSD, where it's something that you're constantly confronted with and, and, and something that kind of haunts you. And so I, I kind of wanted to validate those experiences and then also show that it's possible to live a life of faith that is healthy and helps you thrive and that it doesn't have to be something that, um, takes away your freedom.
Jessica Fowler: So I'm glad that you said that because when I first picked up this book, and we'll talk about exactly what it is, what it is in a second, but I was wondering how it was going to end and what it was going to look like as far as the relationship with spirituality, but can you share what the book is about and what you write about?
Anna Gazmarian: Yeah. So, the book is a memoir. It's, it's about, um, growing up in the church and then it's about my bipolar diagnosis. And for me, the hardest part of the diagnosis was reconciling my faith with mental illness because for so long that was attributed to sin and demons and once I was confronted with it, um, I didn't really know how it fit in my life and if it was possible to continue living a faith. And, um, so the book kind of chronicles that wrestling and redefining what faith is and also challenging so many memoirs that end in renunciation. I wanted it to be a book that really struggled and wrestled but ended in a place of accepting that wrestling and accepting those questions and not reaching these neat conclusions.
Jessica Fowler: Can you share a little bit about sort of how this started and what, for our listeners who don't know what bipolar disorder is, can you share a little bit about what that is for you?
Anna Gazmarian: Yeah, so the book started because when I was diagnosed I was looking for resources and I couldn't find any. And I, a large part of me was writing for my younger self and thinking through what I needed and thinking through the people that I grew up with that face similar struggles, what I wanted them to have. And also, I feel like now that I'm a mom, I really wanted to wrestle with my past so that that was something that my daughter could see that you can, you can be who you are and you can have these memories and you can have a past without having shame and guilt. And I didn't want to, I feel like a lot of parents turn to their kids to heal their past or use their kids to process those things. And for me, I really wanted my daughter to have a depiction of what it looks like to have forgiveness and self-compassion. Also, uh, bipolar disorder for me, it manifests as really deep depressive episodes that can sometimes last years and I also have resistant depression treatment, resistant to depression. So ,I will be on the medication for a little bit and then I will just stop working. And then I'm back to square one. I have had manic episodes. I haven't had in a couple of years and that for me manifest as racing thoughts and erratic, uh, behavior. I've, I've learned to channel it into writing so that when I get to that place, I'm either creating art or I'm writing. And that, that's how I handle it. But every time I have that high, it's followed by a deep, deep depression. And I think something about mental illness is that you don't really know what you're striving for and for a really long time I thought, okay, if I keep doing this, I can find the right medication. I can find the right treatment. And then everything will be put together, but stability is so static and it's, it's one step forward and several steps back. So even with this book, there does reach a place of stability, but there's also a hint at the end of going backwards again. I, I think one of the scariest things, the longer you're with mental illness, like I was diagnosed really young and so it was, I had no framework of what my life could be or what I could accomplish. And now that I have that, I think one of the hardest things is, am I going to go back to that place? And having all these memories and associations, and it's a trauma. And, and I get triggered whenever I'm depressed, of my mind going to these places of how long is this going to last? How deep is this going to be? Is it possible for it to get lower than it already was?
Jessica Fowler: And so how, how does your faith fit into all of that for you when you think about your diagnosis and those thoughts?
Anna Gazmarian: Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. I think something that's really helped me is the fact that when I was growing up, my only frame of reference for dealing with my emotions was my faith and my only way of finding relief was through the Bible. And so I view treatment as a miracle. And I think something that's really helped me is expanding my view of God beyond the church and believing that churches and sacred places can exist in so many places. And I always, I always say that God is a place of safety and I feel like every place that I feel safe, God is. And I believe that everyone is made in the image of God and I think because of that, I see God in other people and that has, in my lowest places, allowed me to hold on to God. And I think when you're in a place of darkness, it makes light even more visible, and I think those depictions of love that I have felt and seen now that I've conquered the whole self-hatred and have self-compassion really point me back to God.
And I used to view mental illness as a conflict with spirituality, but I think in studying the scriptures, even looking at Jesus, so many people were lived an entire life of turmoil, and it still pointed them back to God. And I think there's something really beautiful about what suffering can teach you about the world and what can it can teach you about people and the fact that it can help you feel more connected with people. And I think giving that a bigger, a bigger picture of believing in a God that is present in suffering makes it easier to stay in those places and believe that restoration can happen and that God is making things new and beautiful every day and that could include the ugliest parts of our lives.
Jessica Fowler: Well, what I appreciated about this book. So when we say church, you're talking about like a Christian faith, correct?
Anna Gazmarian: Right. Right.
Jessica Fowler: Just make that clear. Um, is that we can see this a lot is, you know, as a therapist and people aren't always given that message of going to therapy, getting treatment, right? It can be seen differently in some churches. And so, I appreciate when you wrote this book, how you're able to integrate that. But as you just said, you're grateful for the treatment that you received, right? That you needed that in addition to your faith, that it wasn't, you know, that you didn't, it didn't stop you from seeking out the help that you needed, which I think is a really important message for people to hear.
Anna Gazmarian: Yeah, and I think it's a really tricky thing because, I mean, I really, I, I started going to Christian therapists and there's so many Christian therapists that you don't realize step you. And into their office believe that the Bible can be the answer to all mental illnesses. And that is like actually taught in some schools, which I'm sure, you know, and I, there's just so much harm in that. And it took me a really long time to take medication without feeling guilty for it or like, if I tried harder, if I, If I was more spiritual, it would get easier or better and that was something I still struggle with where because of that framework, I grew up when there's moments where that still creeps in and I have a psychiatrist and I remember one time I was in a really deep depression and he was like, you know, none of this is your fault and I just broke down because I, I sometimes still have those moments where it does feel like my fault.
Jessica Fowler: It's a good message, message to hear, but it's, you know, working through that and believing that too is something we all need to hear. What would you say are one or two takeaways you would like your readers to walk away with?
Anna Gazmarian: I feel like one of the most important things for me was redefining what faith is. And for such a long time it was about following a set of rules. And I was at one of my readings and there was a guy that came up to me that was crying and was just like, how do I, how do I have faith and I'm scared because I don't know how to have it and I looked at it. It was just like the fact that you are still going and waking up in the morning is a step of faith. The fact that you're here is a step of faith. The fact that you're getting help is a step of faith and finding those places of faith and viewing faith as something where struggle and questions and doubt can exist and they're not things that you have to run away from and should not run away from because they can expand your, your world. And by the end of the book, I wanted people to feel safe to reexamine their relationship with spirituality and integrate those parts of themselves that they're scared of. Because from a young age, I was so scared of having doubts. I was so scared of having questions. And now I view those as stepping stones and what it means to be a person of faith and not just taking things blindly, but very much examining them and making faith your own. I also, I wanted the book to like I said earlier, just give words to people's experiences that they're not able to have words for, and challenge the typical recovery narrative where everything ends on this happy, beautiful note where everything's put together. And I really just wanted to honor experiences. I remember being in college and so depressed, and so unable to focus on my life and I wanted to have a book where it shows how resilient people with mental illness are and that it is possible to strive and reach for dreams and reach goals because for so long, I didn't have any doctors telling me that I could do that. I had people telling me that I wasn't going to live a meaningful life and that all my life was going to be is taking medication. And I think something that I wanted to do is recontextualize the role of mental illness in your life. Because I think when you're doing all these things, it's very easy to find your entire identity on it. And now I don't even really think about being mentally ill because it's just. It's just another part of me.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, it doesn't have to define you. It's just something that you have and you don't have to focus on. I love that. And I'll say too, like, I guess I give a, because it's a mental health podcast, a trigger warning for the book in the sense that you do talk about your depression, um, and thoughts that you struggle with and things like that, so readers should know that. But you do it in a way in how you sought help, which I thought was really helpful for people to read and see. And it's just part of, like you just said, it's just part of your story, but it's not the focus, right? And here are all the other things that you're doing in addition, um, to something you just struggle with, which is beautiful.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you. Is there anything else our readers should know?
Anna Gazmarian: I don't think so.
Jessica Fowelr: Where is the best place for, um, our listeners to connect with you?
Anna Gazmarian: I am on Instagram. Agazmarian, and I'm also on Twitter, Anna_ gazmarian, and you can also send me an email through my website, which is Annagazmarian.com.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
Anna Gazmarian: Yeah. Thank you.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of what your therapist is reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only, and although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.