Episode 12: Robert Rice, Ph.D
Discount code: FLE22
Jessica Fowler: [00:00:00] Welcome back listeners to What Your Therapist is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we have something a little bit different. Today, this episode is really for therapists. Because this book that we're going to talk about today with Dr. Robert Rice is called Video Games and Psychotherapy.
So, it's really about learning to use video games in the therapy room. Dr. Rice is an associate professor at St. John Fisher University in Rochester, New York. He is the co-founder of MindFit Mental Health. Specializing in integrating video games and interactive media into psychotherapy for young people.
And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Rob, welcome to the podcast.
Robert Rice: Thanks for having me.
Jessica Foweler: I'm so excited to have you, especially because we just learned that we're both from Rochester. So, you're my first person to interview that's from Rochester. So that's exciting.
Robert Rice: It's a small [00:01:00] world. Yeah, it is exciting. I had no idea.
Jessica Fowler: So, we're going to talk about your book, Video Games and Psychotherapy and you describe the book as video games and psychotherapy provides the reader with a practical session by session framework for using video games, interactive media, and gaming metaphors to help make the process of psychotherapy more engaging for today's youth.
Someone picks up this book, right? Cause this, like you describe it as a step by step. Way of using video games and you describe it in a way of different ways, right? So, actually using a video game in session, using metaphors and things like that. Can you describe a little bit about like, as a therapist, right? So, this book is written for therapists describe what they're getting in this and how one can use, maybe just like a little overview of how one uses video games in session.
Robert Rice: Great. Thank you. Absolutely. So, uh, and so my orientation, uh, is cognitive behavior therapy and narrative [00:02:00] therapy, which you wouldn't think go together well, but they actually really do.
Um, and in particular, um, when using, uh, these types of metaphors and stuff in therapy, uh, there's in both CBT and narrative therapy, there's an emphasis on seeing the problem as the problem, right? Externalizing the problem and separating it from the person. And so, in that way, uh, it works really well when you're, um, when you're using this type of, when you're using interactive media and video games and these types of metaphors and therapy.
Uh, and, and so, uh, the, my goal was generally with people to find a game that best, that had metaphors that best represented. some of the things that they were working on in therapy. Uh, and, you know, sometimes that would involve, uh, asking questions like if your game, if your life were, were a video game and the problem was the big boss, uh, what would that look like, right?
What would each level look like? And that correlated really well with with narrative therapy and in some cases with CBT as (3) well because now we had And we're talking about things in terms of levels and each level got a little more difficult and each each level you learn new skills to help you with the next level Uh, and uh, there was the big boss, but sometimes there were many bosses at each level um that that you needed to work through in order to gain the skills necessary to defeat the big boss and so just so many, you know, uh, parallels between what we do in therapy in particular, um, um, narrative therapy and CBT for me.
The book also, uh, um, talks a lot about, uh, psychophysiological self-regulation, mindfulness, uh, different ways to use video games as a way to help people with self-regulation. I tried to each chapter have a good segment that outlines the research that was available so far in that area. And then some case examples of, you know, from my practice of how these games in this particular circumstance were used.
And then questions, questions and answers that [00:04:00] people might have who want to do this work. And that was one of the main questions that I had and that other people have when I'm talking to them about this work as well. Isn't that expensive? Am I going to have to buy a bunch of technology? Uh, and really it can be as expensive as you want it to be. In general, you know, biofeedback that the sensor that I use the most is $125 heart math heart rate variability sensor. It's called the inner balance sensor. It's I like it for you for integrating with video game work because you can it's an ear sensor, not a not a finger sensor. So, people have their hands free for controlling the game and stuff and they don't need to you know, have something awkward on their finger while they're trying to use a controller. Uh, and the user interface is really simple. Um, just it's a red, blue and green, you know, red is high stress, blue is medium stress, and green is low stress. Uh, and so for 125 bucks, uh, that sensor. Um, can help you do a lot of things in therapy. I, I, one thing [00:05:00] that I, I do three times a day when I'm seeing clients, uh, is sit down, uh, with them, usually we'll play co-op game of some sort. So again, we're both working together towards a common goal. Uh, we'll put the biofeedback sensor on their ear. Uh, and at this point, generally they've had some training in abdominal breathing and some of the different skills that people use to self-regulate. Uh, and the rule will be, uh, we'll play as long as you're at blue or green. Um, if you go to red, I've got a pause button right there. We pause, but most clients learn to pause it on their own. Uh, and you use your skills to get back to green before we can start playing again. And that becomes, it's such a, a powerful way to practice this stuff because it's, uh, we can't always go to the corner and, and kind of, right. You know, you've got to learn how to use these skills while you're engaged in something, sometimes something that's, that's exciting and, and, uh, it requires some attention. Uh, and so, you know, that, um, technique is talked a lot about [00:06:00] in, in the book in particular, I think it's chapter four on self-regulation, uh, and, um. That's one example of, you know, a pretty small investment you can make, um, and, uh, that results in, you know, some really great additional tools in the therapy setting.
Jessica Fowler: Well, what I like about this is, so I think you talked about this in the book too. And I say it all the time and I say it on this podcast all the time is that when we learn these skills we often think that we, you know, need to use them in the moment. Right, but we actually, we can't, right, because we haven't practiced enough. So, it's practicing when we're calm and regulated to be able to do it in the moment. And here you're taking something that people are doing, right, they're doing it. It's something that they enjoy and you can be right there with them and then help them learn to practice the skill, right? Because, you know, you're not there at home when kiddo is, you know, getting [00:07:00] yelled at for not doing their homework or whatever, right? So, this is a way to just continuously practice that and then you have the biofeedback so you have the data right to show that this is a moment to practice it.
Robert Rice: Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: that's great.
Robert Rice: Yeah, it's a mirror. Yeah, the word calibration is used a lot in my practice and talked about in the book. This is the importance of you know, taking, creating some sort of calibration routine, you know, several times throughout the day, stopping and using these skills so that your adrenaline level never gets to the point where, you know, you're, uh, just, uh, you know, one, one small problem from fight or flight.
Jessica Fowler: The other thing I liked that I wanted to say that I liked about this is that in the beginning, and you've said this, just that you are not a gamer, right? I'm. I'm not a gamer. I had the same experience with the Nintendo. I'm, I know I have this picture of me hugging it when I'm a kid when it came out and we got it for Christmas morning, right? I, you know, I, we all knew you couldn't turn it off. [00:08:00] Just keep playing and playing and playing and make sure nobody touched the TV so it didn't lose. Right?
Robert Rice: All the people like it's not when you see the games that are out there now, um, knowing how much we were into that, you know, old school Nintendo entertainment. You know, it's no wonder that, uh, today's youth are so, and just, uh, again, preoccupied in many cases with, with these games. And so, sorry, I cut you off, but I just did. I'm appreciating your story about, uh, you know, also being, you know, a kid gamer, but not necessarily an adult gamer.
Jessica Fowler: No. well, it's true, right? I mean, think about it. Cause I mean, you had to play, like, I liked Super Mario Brothers Three. I mean, you had to play for hours, right? And we're always on kids now. Like, oh, you can't be on more than two hours, right? But when you reflect on at least me, I know that I was on it for several hours because you couldn't stop. It was such an investment.
Robert Rice: We didn't know, you know, someday we're going to talk about social media the same way.
Jessica Fowler: I think we are [00:09:00] talking about social media the same way.
Robert Rice: Probably. Yes.
Jessica Fowler: But I guess my point is that you know, you're saying that you're not a gamer, right? I would say I'm definitely not a gamer. Um, but this is for therapists who are not gamers, who are gamers and who are not gamers, to make it more comfortable to say like, oh, this is something that I can do, right?
Especially when I think of children or play or therapists who work with kids, right? They probably they're some of their clients probably come in and talk all the time about the video games, right? And the therapist probably has no clue. Here's a way to bring some of that in.
Robert Rice: Yeah, this is a book for therapists who work with young people. And if you work with young people these days, there's really no avoiding talking about video games. Um, if you, if you want to meet them where, where they're at. You know, my original thought for a title before, you know, we landed on video games and psychotherapy was, you know, uh, uh, video games and psychotherapy for dummies. Because, uh, it really is the purpose is to try to [00:10:00] to give those, uh, therapists out there who are working with young people who are wanting to meet them where they're at, who are wanting to, to, to be able to use some of these metaphors in therapy, the tool, uh, and the information they need to do that. In fact, uh, part two, there's a part two of the book. That just goes through, uh, over, it's, I think it's 42 different video games that, uh, um, uh, have some pretty good therapeutic metaphors with specific ideas for how to use them in therapy, you know, design a, you know, design a level, um, from this game, you know, with your client that represents X, Y, and Z and, you know, specific questions, uh, that, that therapists can ask their clients, um, if they learn that their client likes that video game.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. What would you say are one or two takeaways that for the therapist reading this book that you would like them to walk away with.
Robert Rice: uh, that working that using video games in psychotherapy isn't scary. [00:11:00] It's not, uh, it's not something to avoid because of, you know, the technology and fear around the technology. That would be one for sure. And then choosing would be, uh, be hard for me. I'd say the, the value of, um, the narrative approach in externalizing problems in therapy, right? I don't, uh, I'm hoping that, that people who don't even really have an interest in using video games in therapy, uh, read this book and learn better ways of using art, of using movies, of using music in therapy, because a lot of the concepts really apply to, you know, other, other, uh, interests and, and things that, uh, that have, um, metaphors with therapeutic value. Uh, so, um, I would say [00:12:00] those would be two of the main things that I want, I would want people to take away from it. And then, you know, each chapter in the book really speaks to different diagnoses and specific, uh, approaches for using things like YouTube and, and video game music. And that kind of stuff. And so I also would want people to, uh, start thinking about how just diverse and, uh, how many different, uh, things within the area of field games or video games, uh, people can, uh, incorporate. It's, you know, it's not just the game itself. It's, you know, the music. It's, uh, you know, it's the, uh, you know, the whole, I, you know, biofeedback and using video games to help us self-regulation.
Uh, there's, uh, apps, you know, there's, uh, and there's some games that have been developed successfully, uh, uh, specifically for using in mental health purposes and chapter 10 covers that there's, there is one FDA approved game, [00:13:00] uh, for treating kids with ADHD. And so, uh, I'm hoping that people, uh, who are interested in developing these games and using this the video games and psychotherapy with young people moving forward, uh, that they, uh, are able to, to learn about what other people are doing and that that inspires them to, to, you know, uh, do more research so that, uh, we can write a second edition with all new, great stuff.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. Just piggybacking off that for a second. When you said about the art therapy piece, I was thinking about that reading this, like even just talking about it, right? Like what would your avatar look like, right? Like that's, you know, that tells so much, right? There's so much to work with right there. Yeah. So, it doesn't even have to be the video games that can just even be talking about the video games.
Robert Rice: No, no. That's how I am. It's I feel good about this being evidence based, right? Because, uh, really, we're taking we're doing things that have been used in therapy [00:14:00] with young people for a long time, just with crayons and paper and another and we're taking video games and video game metaphors and showing how you know how that can, uh, accomplish similar, um, similar outcomes without, you know, a great cost to the to the clinician.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. Well, thank you so much for coming on and talking about this topic today.
Robert Rice: Oh, thank you for having me. This has been exciting. I am grateful to, so I, I teach at St. John Fisher University and I was able to write this book during a sabbatical from, from St. John Fisher. And so, I'm grateful to, for, uh, to be in the situation I'm in, uh, that I was able to write it. And, uh, I'm so glad that you asked me to be on. Um, this is, uh, this is just a fun thing for me to talk about.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. Well, thank you. Where can our listeners find you if they want to connect.
Robert Rice: All right. So, as I said, I work at St. John Fisher University. So, if you go to St. John Fisher University, I've got a page there.
My practice website is mindfitmentalhealth.com. And so you can connect with me through there. [00:15:00] There's actually a button where you can email me through, through that website. And since writing the book, I never had a Twitter before, but since writing the book, I was advised heavily to get a Twitter account.
And so, uh, at this point, I don't really know what I, which is kind of ironic that, uh, there's certain areas I'm, yeah, I wrote a book on using technology and mental health, and there's certain areas of technology that I'm completely ignorant. But, uh, but my Twitter, I think it's called the Twitter handle is Robert R71521041.
And so, I'm looking for, uh, to connect with more people on Twitter so that I can find out why everyone's telling me I need to do this.
Jessica Fowler: see what it's all about. And the listeners, I will connect on the website, a discount code for our listeners.
Robert Rice: Yes, we will get from the publisher, um, which is Rutledge, a discount code just for your listeners. It's FLE22. [00:16:00] So capital FLE22.
Jessica Fowler: Excellent. Well, thank you so much.
Robert Rice: Thank you again.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading.
Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out if there's a giveaway going on. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only and although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.