Episode 49: Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: We're roommates, you know, we're, we're good partnership, but it's boring. I don't, I'm not really that thrilled with being with you that much. We're arguing a lot and it's cyclical arguments, not that excited to come home, kind of fantasizing about being with somebody else. I, I don't feel loved or heard or seen those, the people who the book really gravitates toward.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to what your therapist is reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we are speaking with Dr. Heather Brown, PsyD, LMFT, TEDx speaker, and bestselling author of Speaking with the Heart: Transforming Your Relationship and Communication with Compassion and Connection. This book helps people recognize the power of communication as it is one of our most important skills that we have and yet we don't consider our understanding, approach, belief, and therefore miss our possibilities. Living with a paranoid schizophrenic mother gave Dr. Heather a unique and powerful awareness that no one has the same reality though we believe we do utilizing this revolutionary awareness has allowed her to transform communication within self and within all other types of relationships This is the key to acceptance.
I am also providing a trigger warning. Although it is not discussed during the podcast, suicide and abuse are mentioned. If you are enjoying these episodes and would like to support the podcast, please make sure you leave us a five star review. And after today's episode, make sure you head on over to social media @therapybookspodcast to find out about the latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome Dr. Heather.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Thank you for having me.
Jessica Fowler: I am so excited to talk to you about your book today. Um, but as we were kind of talking earlier, there's a question I like to start with and kind of jump right in. And the question is, do you have a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Absolutely. Um, my mom was a paranoid schizophrenic and she killed herself when I was 16, which sent our family just into, of course, even deeper chaos. And I remember knowing really deeply that I needed a family. And so, I started to go to church, which is something that we didn't do. And books had always been loves for me. Library was a love for me. So, I went to the bookstore and I went into the self-help section because I knew I needed a whole lot of self-help.
And on the shelf, I saw the book, Love by Leo Buscaglia. And it was red and the words were all in capital and I knew it was what I needed. And so, I opened it up and started reading through it and his words were a hug. And he talked about hugging and he talked about the demise of the extended family. And I thought, oh my gosh. So, I think I spent, you know, I don't even know, like a day's worth of work to buy the, what, $3.95 book and fell madly in love with it. And interestingly, yesterday I was interviewed for a documentary that they're making on him. And my fingers are crossed that I will get to be part of that legacy to share how much has impacted my life. I reached out to the Leo Buscaglia Foundation just recently to tell them about my book and they wanted it to have it because it is so impacted from his work.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, that's wonderful. I will have to I've not read that book so I will have to check that out.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: It is beautiful. He was huge. He passed away a long time ago, a hundred years if he was alive now, but he literally had a course on love and how to love and why to love and, and his viewpoint was, we're just all here in this together and just need to know how to care for each other better and how to risk it and ask for a hug and to ask for love. Glorious soul. An absolute glorious soul and taught me a lot about risking in being a human being in this world to take care of yourself and to take care of others. He was very much ahead of his time, but he was also timeless. And that's part of what I really, really enjoy and appreciate about him.
Jessica Fowler: I love that that has had such an impact on you and it's what you found, right, when something was going on in your life, right, a trauma that had happened and that you found that and it's still impacting you today. So, my question is then what are what is your hope that your readers how your book impacts your readers?
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Well, very much. I mean, I'm hoping very much like Leo's and so far the reviews have been that it's called it's called Speaking with the Heart. And it's transforming your relationship and communication with compassion and connection. And I use my words in a way as I hope to embrace the reader. And so, I walk hand in hand with them. And it's the reason my publisher, Post Hill Press, picked me up. Because he said, I haven't seen a book that does this. Most books tell you what to do, and then you go off and do it. And so, we talk about what we're going to do. And then you guys go and do it or the individual goes and does it and then I talk through it and say, okay, so what was hardest here and what was best here? And what did you learn here? So, the people who have read said, I feel like I'm either curled up on a couch next to you and you're talking to me, or I feel like I'm in office with you and it's a session and that's what I want.I want to be hugging and embracing my readers to help them those places where it's hard and it's scary. We're really good in some aspects of love, but we're not so good in those places where it's scary, or we feel like we have to risk, or we feel like we're sharing something that might not be received.
And yet that's the place that needs the love the most. And if it can't be from your partner, if it can't be from your parent, then by God, it needs to be from you. And so, I really try to walk the listener through loving yourself and owning your history. owning what you've come from. There's a chapter on love languages, which is vital. And there's a chapter on giving and receiving, which is vital. And there's a chapter on attachment styles and so helpful in understanding yourself. And when I took the test years ago, I come out secure. And it's simply because I've worked on myself for five bazillion years. But deep down inside, I'm anxious and I know that. And it pops up when I'm scared. I'm that little three-year-old who wants to be hugged, who wants to be reassured. And I was a little embarrassed by that. I thought, my gosh, I'm a doctorate and I've been in therapy for forever. And why would I still have a little remnant of that? And I did something really lovely. And I hope, I hope your listeners will as well. I embraced myself in that. I said, dear God, Heather. My mom was a paranoid schizophrenic, you know, where you're molested, you were beaten, she killed herself, you were disowned and on your own at 18, you're a widow, you got a whole lot of reasons to wanna hug and to be a little anxious.
And then I loved myself and the fact that My life was that, and it's okay that at moments that creeps up. Most times it doesn't, but sometimes it does. And in those places where we're fragile, in those places where we're scared, in those places where we're angry, we need more love. In my opinion, everything that's wrong with the world would benefit from more love. Be it toward ourself, toward the other, toward the world. And I think what's missing in communication is that we start with words, which are a really small part of it, and we just throw them out there and we hope they land well. And to me, it doesn't work. And so, I start with compassion. I care for you. I want to hear you. I want this conversation to go well. What is it that you need from me? And where are you scared? Where are you concerned? And can we walk through this carefully together? Because I don't want to lose you. Might not agree with you, but I don't want to lose you. And so very energetically, I pace with my clients as we move through tough places. And I'll say, oh, I feel you pulling back a little bit. What's going on right now? You know, can you stay here with me? Or is there something that I said or did? That's caused a little bit of a wobble. Can we talk about that? When you, when you realize that those places that we pull back, those places that we hide are the most beautiful place to actually connect, then you change the relationship.
And when you change the relationship, you change the communication. And I think we argue because we're not realizing that person really wants to be loved. The reason we fight is because we really want to be loved. It's kind of counter intuitive, but that's what we do. And so when a couple comes to me and there's a lot of anger going on, there's a lot of passion going on. To me, in a way, it's a good sign. They're really invested in making this work. They really want their partner to love them. They're just doing it in a really poor way. And so, I show them different ways to express that side we don't express. The fear, the hurt, we just express the anger.
And not everybody wants a relationship that is connected and compassionate. Some people really don't. And then my book is completely not for, for someone who doesn't. But I talk about sex and money and family and anxiety and rejection and play and holidays and how to open up your heart and how to have a conscious conversation where you actually know where you're going before you start. And so it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great vehicle to help people who want to be able to really uplevel their relationship, uplevel their awareness with themselves, and then certainly learn how to speak in, in much more beautiful terms of love. It starts off with a love letter. To, to the individual, and then if they're in a relationship, also in the relationship. And then I continue. I, I, I say communication is a love letter, if we choose for it to be.
Jessica Fowler: You definitely cover, I think, every. thing in this book. And it definitely does start with that compassion and looking at it. And even like you said, your three-year-old, you know, that young child in you, right. And that's really kind of where a lot of things come from, right. t's understanding and knowing ourselves, right. And working with that and knowing that maybe, that's what's being triggered right for in a fight or an argument or something like that and you set it up in a way to kind of to you set it up in a way to build that compassion and that connection and you have exercises in there for people to do you have a couple spots for journaling like after they do that and so it's a nice way to you know, you build upon that, what seems like in the book. And I have to say, I do love that, you know, it's about communication and that connection, but there's all of these topics. And I thought, you know, definitely bringing up sex, the money I thought was really important. You even had a section on being a stepparent. There was just all these topics that you kind of broke down and talked about, and then you inter, you know, weaved your own personal experience and some of your clients. So it was set up in this way to kind of cover. everything, which I thought was nice.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: I really wanted to, I wanted, I wanted to have a book that, that covered so many areas that are challenging. And I've, I've been a relationship expert for 27 years. So, I can really pull the marrow out of a lot of areas, whereas maybe that might be a little, a little harder for someone who doesn't have as much education or experience.
There's a couple areas I don't touch though. And I'm very clear with that. And that's domestic violence. drug addiction and infidelity. And it's simply because they're so personal. I don't in any way want to say, here let me help you with this, with a book. I think that's something that really needs to be dealt with individually.
Um, once the person's a little beyond that, my book would be great. But that's, that's a crisis situation. And my book isn't meant for crisis. It's meant for somebody who's at a place to be able to help themselves heal in where they are. Yeah, but I tried to cover all of those because I've read so many books and I think so much is missing. And sex, money, and family are the three biggest reasons people divorce. So, I don't know how you would not want to cover it in a book on relationship.
Jessica Fowler: And I would say too, I would agree with you. This is, I read this book as more about, we're looking to have our relationship thrive. It's not in survival or a crisis situation.
It's we're, we're kind of doing okay. Okay. And how can we work on it to make it a little bit better?
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Yeah, we're roommates, you know, we're, we're good partnership, but it's boring. I don't, I'm not really that thrilled with being with you that much. We're arguing a lot and it's cyclical arguments, not that excited to come home. Kind of fantasizing about being with somebody else. I don't feel loved or heard or seen. Those are the people who the book really gravitates toward. And a lot of them are the people where you feel like it's just fuddy duddy. Like, it's okay, but is this all there is? And my answer is, oh, heck no. We can make this so much more fun. We can make it so much more vital. But sometimes we don't know how. You know, we know, okay, I, I want to rejuvenate, I want to rejuvenate my relationship. But, and there's also the place, and for me, this has been fascinating in writing a book on communication. What I realized is that we go and buy a book to be told how to communicate. I don't do that. I actually wrote a book to show you how to connect and, and communicate with the person you're communicating with. So, I'll give you a whole bunch of guidelines for sure. But the key in why I think my book is so different is I open up that door for you to then access the other. Because the other is who's important in that conversation.
It's not, these are the ten things to do and these are the ten things to not do in a conversation. That's great. That's the appetizer. But the meat is, how do I relate with you? What do you need from me? I was told to say, you know, I statements by everybody. But, but, you're telling me you want me to hold your hand. Or you want to pray before, or you can only track it for three minute sections, or I can't do it before we go to work. So, it's really asking those questions. And one of my favorite exercises that of course is in my book is at near the end of the day, whether it's your partner, whether it's your boss, whether it's your friend to say, if they're important to you, is there a place that I missed you today?
Is there somewhere I didn't come through for you today? And if so, like, would you let me know so I can try to correct it now? And then, after you've done that and the person feels so valued and so loved, you say, where did you feel the most seen? Or the most desired? Or the most loved by me today? And if they say, I didn't really feel it, instead of getting angry and mad, you say, oh, thank you for letting me know. How about right now? How about we do that right now and how about we go deeper? If you do that every single day, regardless of who the relationship is with, the other person can't say that you didn't try to correct. And they can't say that you didn't offer more. And that's a beautiful truth. Every single day if I try to correct where I've hurt you or wronged you, and if every single day I try to love you better, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want me in your life.
It doesn't really matter the factor, you know, whether it's lover, partner, whatever, but I can't imagine why you wouldn't want me in your life. Cause what a, what a beautiful entity that would be. And so that's the heartbeat. That's why I say communication is a love letter and compassion is the key. Cause if I care for you, if I'm concerned about, well, love, what do you need?
And how do I come through for you? That's a, that's a different way of being. I think my book is a way of being. And I think that's what Leo was too. He showed how to really love. And I'm really praying that my book does the same. Because that's, that's really what I want. I wish he could have read it. I would have loved to have seen what he would have said. Because I think he would have loved it.
Jessica Fowler: Well, I love that question. Is there a place that I didn't see you today that you weren't seeing today? I love that question. Um, I'm going to ask that with my kids, like what a great question for kids, relationships too, but kids.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Yes. And what I used to ask my kids, I still do. They're grown now, but I say every month, where to have, I loved you the best this month. Where did, where did you really receive it the most? And then I say, where am I blowing it? And wherever they say I'm blowing it, I work on it. There's one time my daughter said to me, mom, she was 12. She said, mom, you're a martyr. And I went, oh, I totally am. And I have been my whole life. And my mom was as well. And this is so ugly and I will work on this, please have a whole lot of grace and patience with me because this is going to be hard. Because it was my whole way of being, but I realized, oh, I don't want to be that way. So, every month I'd come to her and every month I had to apologize. I did it again. I know I'm better, but I still did it. I'm so sorry. Like I'm a therapist and this is so hard for me. Please forgive me. And then on the ninth month I came to her and I said, I did it. I did it! And she looked at me and she started crying. And I'm like, baby, what? When? When was I a martyr? And she said, Mommy, you weren't. And I looked at her and I'm like, then why are you crying? This was gold, she said, because this was so hard for you. And you love me so much. You worked on this for nine months. And my heart like, broke and swelled at the same time. That's love. Now, if I hadn't have wanted to do it, no, but I did and she saw it and I kept on trying and martyrdom has slipped in, I don't know, maybe three or four times in the last 15 years, but rarely because I am really mindful of it. And so there's this beautiful place, regardless of your relationship, that if I really want to love you, I'm going to ask. And if I can't do it, I'm going to be honest and say, I am so sorry. You're, I get that you want that. I'm not the person you're going to need to go talk to Susie, because I'm not to do that, or I'm not willing to do that. But if you are, it's this beautiful place of loving each other really deeply. And whether it's a parent child, whether it is a best friend, best friend, whether it's a lover. What a beautiful thing. Then we can become even better in ourselves. When someone comes to me with a request, it's often offered as a criticism. I receive it as a request. This is one place where I'm really, really different than most people. I decide someone is seeing me in a way that I could be better than I am. And I take that as a beautiful confirmation of, oh, wow, you think I'm amazing or you think I could be amazing in a little bit. I want to be amazing.
I'm not going to be angry with you that you brought something to my attention where I can be even better. Might not be super happy. Wasn't super happy when I was told I was a martyr. But I was a martyr. And so, I owned it and thought, let me change this. When someone comes to you and says I don't like this, if you can hear it with a little bit of different words, if you can hear it instead of I'm putting you down, I'm judging you, I'm attacking you.
If you can hear it with it's a little bit hard for me to love you with this characteristic here. Now you don't have to change it, but I might have to pull away and I don't really want to. So, could you help me there? My son's six foot five. And when he was home, we'd sit on the couch together and he would swing his huge legs and they'd hit me in the calf and it hurt.
I'm like, Mac, ow, stop, ow. But he's this big guy. And so, it would just keep on happening. So, I moved across the way to the other couch and he said, Mom, why are you moving there? Don't you want to sit next to me? Don't you love me? And I said, of course I love you. And I'd love to sit next to you. But when I sit next to you, it hit my calves and it hurts.
So, let's have a deal, I'll sit with you next to you on the couch, if you flip your feet over the side of the couch and you beat up the side of the couch, and that's our agreement. It wasn't that I didn't want to be with my son, I didn't want to be hurt, and listeners, if you take that in, something's going on that's keeping your friend, your partner, your child from being able to be with you, because it hurts them, it bothers them, and so they pull away. But they're not wanting to. So, could you care about this? Could you change this? I hate it when you do this. Is really saying, would you love me better so I can stay closer? Would you care when you hear it that way? If we said it that way? And those are some of the things that my book tries to show you.
Like you could say this differently. You could say this in a way that it could be received so much more beautifully. If we realize that anger is covering up fear or hurt, I'm either fearful you're not going to love me. I'm hurt that I think that you don't. And so, I'll be angry towards you because that's easier for me to express.
If you can get below to when someone's angry with you to say in the back of your head, oh, they're either scared or they're hurt. I wonder what it is. And I'll just straight up ask, Oh, wow. You're angry with me. Have I hurt you? Have I done something that's hurt you? Or are you scared that I'm not going to love you right now?
And it takes it to a whole other place. When my daughter used to come in a little bit angry with me, she'd say, I need to talk with you. And I'd say, absolutely. Do I have permission to share one thing first? She'd always say yes. And then look at her beautiful blue eyes and say, I'm so sorry you're so angry. I'm gonna listen to whatever it is you have to say. I just want you to know I love you so much. And she'd go, Mom! And I'd be like, yeah, come here, baby. Come here, baby. And I'd hug her and we'd be face to face. And it'd be like, what am I doing? What am I doing? I still don't want to be pissing you off. Like, what's going on?
And it wasn't like a people pleasing. It was just like, let me know. Let me know what's irking you so badly. Because I don't want to irk you. How do we figure this out? And if it's something you can't change, you know, your voice is too loud. Well, then maybe we need to not sit so closely together. I don't know how to lower it or, you know, sometimes we can't change what someone wants us to change. That doesn't mean we don't love them, but that's a conversation to have.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. It's talking about it, right. And it's being receptive. I think that's the whole point of your book is being able, how do you talk to each other so you can be receptive to. hearing it and then working on changing it to make it more of a thriving relationship, you know, whether it is with your family or your kids or extended family or whatever, like that sentiment is the same. Like, how do you receive it and then work on it? And then a lot of the book is obviously for like partners, but just that idea of having coming towards you know, situations that come up with compassion, right? Just like you said with your kids, like, I'm gonna be here and listen and be compassionate that you're having a hard time with something that I'm doing, and I will receive that, and then we will talk about it. And either it's something I can change and work on, or it's something I can't, and so then we'll set up a boundary, right? Like that's really what you're saying.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Yeah. And receiving is so hard for so many of us, and it's so important. And that was a place where Leo showed me, like, just do it, just do it, because if you don't, it's not going to get any better. And I saw that in my life, when I'd say, could I have a hug, most times I got it, not every time, but most times. But, I did something with my husband, when I'd have a really rough day, I would call and say, could you just tell me that you love me? And in the beginning he'd say, like, what am I doing that you don't know that?
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, we're all fine. I just want to hear it. Could you just tell me? And he's like, babe, what's going on? I'm like, could you listen to me? Could you just tell me that you love me? And then he'd say, yeah, I love you. And I'm like, thank you. And they'd hang up. And I'm like, I'd come home and he goes, what was that?
I'm like, oh, it was just a tough day. Like I was being beaten up in the office. I just, I just needed to know you love me. And I wasn't fearful of asking. Then there was one day where he called and I picked up the phone. He's like, hey, sweetheart. I just called to tell you that I love you. And I said, oh, thanks, sweetheart. I love you too. I'll see you tonight. Hung up. And then I went, whoa, call him back. So I called him back and I, I said to him, Ted, thank you. That was so sweet. And then he said, you didn't really need it today, did ya? I said, no, I didn't. But thank you, and please keep doing it. Cause, I might've. And I still really received it right. Now, and you touched my heart, even when I didn't know my heart needed to be touched, and I might really need it tomorrow. But I promise you, I never sat there looking at my phone thinking, you better call me and tell me that you love me, or you don't love me. Yet, that's what a lot of us do in a relationship.
If you really thought about it, you would call. If you really loved me, you would have texted. If you really did think I was important, you would have known, and you would have bought this, or you would have come through. We layer all these expectations upon our partner, or our mother, or our friend. And these assumptions, and they need to be agreements, not expectations or assumptions. And that's a huge downfall in relationships. You should have known. You should have done this. No. It's important that we own. If I want something from you, it's up to me to ask. And if you don't ever want me to ask, then I really need to get out of this relationship. Because then I'm left just not getting anything that's important to me. But most times, if you ask instead of demand or attack or belittle, I've never had someone come to me and say, you know, you piss me off so much. I hate you so much. You don't ever do anything. And I've never said, oh, please let me love you right now. Like I'll be guarded and I'll either withdraw or I'll fight back.
So, we gotta look at our dynamics and what we're doing 'cause they don't work. And then be willing to say like, I, I know you don't have to do it. But I'd really like a hug, willing. Most times people will come through. And then it, like you said, like he, your husband just sort of knew and would call and do that.
Jessica Fowler: And I would say hugs is like what happens in our relationship. Like right, you have those hard days and you just need a hug. And so, I had to ask for it first, but now it's just a natural thing that we sort of know if one of us needs it, we just go up to the other one, stand in the kitchen and there we are just giving each other a hug. And it's not like a quick hug. It's a embrace. We just need to connect. We just need that for a few minutes to reset to just be okay.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Hugs are so good. Leo was so right. They're so good. I still love them and I live alone. I'm a widow, so I don't get them very often. So, I hug myself a lot. And you know, with clients, there's the place of, you know, you have to be careful of if it's, if it's, acceptable or not. Um, and I'm single, so I don't have a boyfriend, so I'm not being hugged there. And so, when I'm with someone, especially my son, he gives glorious hugs and he knows. I'm going to say, can I have another? And he always gives me another. And my daughter too.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. I think that's a great place to end. Um, thank you so much for this conversation today.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: It was wonderful. I'm so glad I really enjoyed it.
Jessica Fowler: Where can our listeners connect with you?
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: So the easiest place is my website, www. Dr.heatherbrown.com. And there's a link to my TEDx there, obviously my book, how to work with me.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Thank you.
Heather Browne, PsyD, LMFT: Thank you for having me. Bless you.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. Peace. Information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Dr. Heather Browne PsyD, LMFT, TedX speaker, best seller author of: Speaking with the Heart Transforming Your Relationship and Communication with Compassion and Connection helps people recognize the power of communication. It is one of our most important skills that we have, and yet we don’t consider our understanding, approach, belief, and therefore, miss our possibilities. Living with a paranoid schizophrenic mother gave Dr. Heather a unique and powerful awareness that no one has the same reality, though we believe we do. Utilizing this revolutionary awareness has allowed her to transform communication within self and within all other types of relationship. This is the hidden key to acceptance.